We often use separate terms for “renunciation” and “relinquishment” since there are some notable differences between renunciation and the other methods of terminating one US citizenship. However, renunciation is actually one of the 7 methods of relinquishment, as set out in Immigration and Nationalities Act, s. 349(a). This post explains some of the similarities and differences.
RENUNCIATION – Immigration and Nationalities Act, s. 349(a)(5)
Renunciation is only form of relinquishment where the relinquishing act itself takes place at a US consulate. It is performed by taking the oath of renunciation (form 4080). Form 4081 (Statement of understanding of consequences) is also required. Form 4079 (Request for determination of loss of citizenship) is not strictly required, but the DOS procedure manual does state that “it may prove useful” regarding intent and it seems that most consulates do require it.
Depending on the consulate, renunciation may take one or two visits. Since 2012, there seems to be a trend to switch to one visit.
Since July 2010, there has been a $450 fee for renunciation. It increased to $2350 on 12 September 2014. This fee is payable at the visit where you sign your papers.
In the case of renunciation, the loss of citizenship is effective, for all purposes, as of the date you sign the forms at the consulate.
RELINQUISHMENT BY OTHER MEANS – Immigration and Nationalities Act,
s. 349(a)(1)(2)(3)(4)(6)(7)
Of the remaining 6 methods of relinquishment, the most common means is by naturalisation in a foreign country s. 349(a)(1) with the intent of relinquishing one’s US citizenship.
[This is of particular interest in Canada because whilst over 100,000 US-born Canadian citizens believe themselves to be “Canadian Citizen Only,” according to the 2006 census, it’s believed that almost none have a Certificate of Loss of Nationality because we were told we terminated our US citizenship automatically upon taking Canadian citizenship, particularly prior to 1990 when the administrative presumption changed, and almost no one seems to have even heard of a CLN before 2011.]
In the case of relinquishment not done by renunciation (eg. naturalisation), although the loss of citizenship occurs at the moment the relinquishing act is performed, the relinquishment is not effective in the eyes of the US government until the US government is notified by signing forms at a US consulate. Required forms are 4079 (Request for determination of loss of citizenship) and 4081 (Statement of understanding of consequences). It’s also a very good idea to supplement your 4079 with a statement illustrating your intent, how your post-relinquishment conduct has been consistent with lack of US citizenship. Your post-relinquishment conduct would include indicators of loss of citizenship such as not voting in US elections, travelling on a US passport, etc.
Your CLN will show that the US govt recognises your loss of citizenship did occur on the date you performed your relinquishing act (eg. naturalisation) not the date you signed your CLN application.
When you attend at the consulate regarding this type of relinquishment, you’re essentially notifying them that you already have relinquished. Consequently, this requires only one consulate visit.
There is no fee for processing relinquishments done under these sub-articles. UPDATE: September 2015 – Dept of State has announced relinquishment-based CLNs will cost $2350 beginning November 9, 2015.
Once this is done, the US government will consider the loss of citizenship effective as of the date of the actual relinquishment, except IRS will consider the loss to have occurred on the date you signed the forms at the consulate.
This IRS policy became effective on 4 June 2004, so it may not apply to you if your relinquishing act was performed prior to that date, in which case you ceased to be a citizen before the law came into effect. Please see Read These if Relinquishing Act Performed Prior to 4 June 2004 regarding this.
Renunciation and Relinquishment: What are the differences? Is there a difference?
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530 responses to “Renunciation and Relinquishment: What are the differences? Is there a difference?”
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Regarding: “WorriedInWindsor’s” comment at: http://maplesandbox.ca/2012/renunciation-and-relinquishment-what-are-the-differences-is-there-a-difference/comment-page-22/#comment-45925,
for some reason I could not see any of the Brock comments for the last couple days, until this morning, but I just noticed a rather lively thread on the same topic there starting here: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/renunciation/comment-page-115/#comment-2024684.LikeLike
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@Minto – for what it’s worth, I am in the exact same boat as you are and I have decided to do….nothing. I do not agree that I am a US citizen. I reject that notion and therefore will not renounce because it is something that I do not even think I am in the first place and that would be admitting that I DO think I am a US citizen. They can tell me all they want that their law states that I am, but I do not recognize their law. It’s the same as if the Chinese government told me that their law states that I am a Chinese citizen…well too bad, I am a Canadian and I only recognize Canadian law. I will not go into compliance and I will not renounce. My bank has no reason to ask me where I was born, and if they do, I will ask them if they are going to ask what my religion is too. That’s discrimination! Then, if by some miracle the IRS catches wind of some distantly (in time and place) born person who lives up in Canada and sends me a letter…it’s going into the round file or sent back with “no such person” written on it. End of story. As for border crossing…well if they stop me and ask me questions, then I will just sit and wait it out. I am not going to admit anything to those A…es at the border. That is just me, though. I am so angry about this that it does not matter to me that this may “hang over me” for my life…good…let it…I won’t give in. To hell with them.
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@GwEvil,
You and me both…and I suspect a whole lot of other Canadians with US taint will do the same.LikeLike
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I’m in the “Circle of GwEvil” too.
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Go GwEvil! Your comment renewed my flagging enthusiasm for the fight!
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My thanks and gratitude to the Maple Sandbox and ISB for their support and information. The way to remedy this situation is to continue supporting the Charter Challenge efforts. My statement is below for your reference. I also provided a copy of the Canadian Oath of Citizenship.
Pat Canadian June 19, 2014
Relinquishment Statement for U.S. Consulate:
After living here for 10 years, I have come to the U.S. Consulate in Vancouver to declare my primary allegiance to Canada. I moved to Canada as a Permanent Resident (skilled worker class) in 2004, becoming a Canadian Citizen as soon as this was possible in 2008. Since arriving here in 2004, I have lived, worked, and owned property only in Canada. I have not voted in the United States since leaving in 2004. Since becoming a Canadian Citizen in 2008, I voted in my new country in local and national elections. In 2012, I obtained my Canadian passport and use this passport for travel. My U.S. passport has expired and I did not renew it.
When I took the Canadian Oath of Citizenship in 2008, my intention was to relinquish U.S citizenship. My pledge to the Queen and Dominion of Canada was taken seriously. I love my new country and have developed many ties here in the community. I realize that dual citizenship could create a conflict of interest. With free will, I wish to document my relinquishment of United States Citizenship by becoming a Canadian Citizen and taking the oath in August, 2008 in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada. This statement is to document that relinquishment and to obtain a Certificate of Loss of Nationality.LikeLike
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This July 1, Canada Day, I have a special reason to celebrate. Yesterday was the day of my relinquishment appointment in Vancouver.
As I prepared to go to the appointment, I felt nervous and apprehensive. The US IRS has no right to target innocent Canadians. But the appointment went well. They asked the expected questions and reviewed all my documents.
The consulate officials who interviewed me also gave some advice. The first person said to travel with a copy of the CLN and keep the original in a safe place. He said the CLN (back dated to 2008) would arrive in 3-6 months. Until then I am still considered a US citizen. He also said that if I choose to file back tax forms, to keep the originals and mail copies to the IRS as a precaution. The second interviewer advised me to keep my social security card as I am probably eligible for social security benefits.
As I left the consulate, I felt a wave of relief. What the US Gov and IRS do is way beyond my control but I believe relinquishment is the best path for me. I will be posting notes about my relinquishment experience plus my relinquishment statement on Isaac Brock in their consulate section.
My thanks and gratitude to the Maple SandboxLikeLike
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CONGRATULATION! PatCanadian! I’m so happy for you. Thank you so much for sharing your story, and I look forward to seeing your jubiliant comment when you have that certificate firmly in your hand.
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Great news. Great Letter Pat Canadian. Well done. We look forward to hearing when you receive your CLN.
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@GwEvil @Lynne Swanson and all Maple Sandbox Friends,
Gwen, I wish I could be as brave as you are, but unfortunately, I am not. I have decided to renounce and to follow the “legal” though morally wrong path to do that, though I don’t know yet what the cost will be. I may end up doing just like you, but only after having spent 20,000.00 $ for 5 years of Income Tax prep + FBAR filings. As a 49 year-old, I have been living in Canada for 46 years. I was a stay-at-home mom for quite a few years, and only started making any kind of money 12 years ago (“any kind” meaning more than $ 10,000.00 or $ 20,000.00 a year). Had I known what I was getting myself into, I would have renounced when I didn’t have a penny to my name. I would also have spent much more on my house, my car and my clothes so I wouldn’t have any left to give away to the US.
Today truly is a sad day as I sent in all the bank information for myself and my Canadian company. I didn’t take this decision lightly. Even worse was seeing who I was sending it to: The FINANCIAL CRIMES ENFORCEMENT NETWORK. I actually cried, but felt there was no turning back.
How’s that for the US treating us as second class citizens? I say they are not treating us as citizens at all. It certainly is clear to me what they think of all of us.LikeLike
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I’ve been in shock for the past few days and slowly recovering. I received a phone call from Matthew Bunt, Chief of American Citizen Services Unit at the US Consulate in Vancouver. He told me that he was denying my relinquishment and it could be sent to Washington that way or I could come in and renounce. He said that this was because I used my US passport for travel between the US and Canada after obtaining Canadian Citizenship. We had discussed this at my interview. I had told him that I was simply trying to comply with the law as I understood it. I seriously considered renouncing but decided against this for the time being. I called him back with some questions prepared.
Someone else answered his phone and advised me that Mr. Bunt had “moved on”. I obtained this person’s name for my records. This individual was a temporary replacement for Mr. Bunt. He told me there would be a permanent replacement in September.
I asked my questions of the temporary replacement, who had already looked over my file. I told him that I knew of individuals who had used a US passport after obtaining Canadian citizenship with successful relinquishments. The key issue is the intent in using the passport.
He told me that my relinquishment determination is made in Washington by the State Department. I told him to go ahead and send in the papers.
I don’t like the idea of a renunciation but if the relinquishment is not approved, I certainly will go ahead with it. They told me 3-6 months. I feel terrorized at this point. Watch out for the Vancouver US Consulate.LikeLike
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Ah, the Vancouver Consulate seems to have some residual issues, the reason some were coming all the way from Vancouver to Calgary rather than take their chances there.
You were right, PatCanadian, in asking them to send in your claim to relinquishment. Washington has before and may in your case too approve your claim.
Hang in there — a lot here and at Brock will be pulling for you — and perhaps Pacifica will have some words of wisdom for you.LikeLike
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I don’t know exactly what happened obviously, but from what you’ve written about it, it sounded like everything was on track at your meeting. You wrote:
“We had discussed this at my interview. I had told him that I was simply trying to comply with the law as I understood it.”
Since he was aware of it at your meeting, it’s logical to expect that if he opposed it, or if he felt it might be problematic, he’d bring that up then and there. Not a couple of weeks later. He has a lot of experience with expatriations and I know he’s dealt with the issue of passport use before, so it’s not like he’d never been aware of it before.
Some people who have used a passport after they performed their relinquishing act have received s. (1) based CLNs but others have not. So, it’s definitely not a sure bet.
But, from what I’m reading, it seems you and he discussed your passport use, and he didn’t have a problem with it at your meeting. If I’m understanding it correctly — not sure if I am as I don’t know what he said — but anyway, if he didn’t have a problem at your meeting, then it’s really shoddy to do a 180 degree turn a couple weeks later. People have had a lot of problems with that consulate in the past. They’ve been a lot better since last Fall, but sounds like they’re still problematic.
I hope everything works out well for you.LikeLike
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@PatCanadian. OMG you must have been so freaked out and upset. I have heard of others who had their relinquishment request sent in with a recommendation not to approve it, but Washington very properly approved it anyway. There seems to be a real issue with some of the staff at the US consulates in Canada. I wonder if it’s an administrative policy to give potential relinquishers a rough time, or if it’s just nasty people….
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@OutragedCanadian. Thanks for letting me know this. I sure hope mine is one of those cases that Washington properly approves.
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How far are you into giving all of your information to the IRS, LivingtoRenounce?
There have been discussions at IsaacBrock on your situation. Anne Frank, a well-respected contributer there, says: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2014/07/06/canadian-retirement-plans-of-u-s-persons-subject-to-double-taxation/comment-page-2/#comment-2179604 in answer to YogaGirl’s comment: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2014/07/06/canadian-retirement-plans-of-u-s-persons-subject-to-double-taxation/comment-page-2/#comment-2179576
Can you slow things down and have a better look at what your outcome might be? Are you just taking the advice of US tax and accounting professionals, without second opinions on the matter?
To me, it is criminal what might be your fate, having had the guts and hard work to have your own business in Canada.LikeLike
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Thanks Pacifica and Calgary411 for your support. I wish I had known more about the problems with the Vancouver consulate.
The consulate official noted my US passport use. I told him of my intent in using the passport…complying with the law as I understood it. He asked if I had traveled to any strange foreign countries in the past ten years. I informed him that I had only traveled between Canada and the US. As well we discussed that when my US passport expired, I did not renew it but obtained my Canadian passport. He said I would receive my CLN in 3-6 months.
Pacifica, I have had some difficulty in reaching you by email about my consulate report on ISB. I think its best not to publish it now but wait until we know the outcome. At that point, we can publish the whole story.
If my relinquishment does not work out, I will be renouncing for sure.
Best wishes to everyone with their struggle.LikeLike
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@ PatCanadian,
I got the e-mail you sent this afternoon and sent a reply to it. I deleted your report.
I think that when it comes to passport use, one can’t predict how a consul’s decision will go, especially when you don’t know the file (as I don’t) — but I find it really strange/unfair to blindside you a couple of weeks later instead of giving his opinion at the meeting itself.
I hope things work out well.LikeLike
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@calgary411
Thanks for asking and for the links. I have only sent in FBARs and asked for an extension on tax return filings. As of today, I have no idea what the financial implications are going to be, though one thing is very clear to me: I will not pay anything to the US. I will decide what to do next once I have more information on the outcome.
I can’t believe how naive I was when I started this process. I acted out of fear the IRS would find me to being deathly afraid of what I have done to myself. Obviously had I known what I know now, I never would have structured my company the way I have (I even made big changes in 2013…), and I would have renounced a long time ago. I went from being a mom/pretty successful business woman/regular law-abiding Canadian citizen to a US tax cheat. Overnight, everything changed and I fear there is no way of getting myself out of this mess. The second fear is worse than the first one was.LikeLike
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@LivingtoRenounce, it’s just an absolute travesty that you have to live in such fear. I am so ANGRY with our government that I can hardly stand it. You are NOT a US tax cheat. You are still a law abiding Canadian citizen. Keep that thought firmly in your mind. How can it be possibly be a reasonable idea that people who have lived away from the US for many decades could possibly know the oh-so-special rules of the oh-so-special United States of Ambush. When I was a little girl I had a magic wand – I so wish I had one now that I could wave and make this nightmare disappear. I know it’s hard, but try to keep your spirits up and remember that you’re not alone. Misery shared sometimes reduces the weight on our shoulders. We’re with you in spirit, hang in there.
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I have run off the forms 4079 AND 4081. Where do I send them when filled out. Do I need to make a special trip there personally to hand them in? Should I make an appointment ahead of time?
I have been living in Canada for almost 50 years. Never have I owned property here nor in the USA. I am 75 and plan to die here and be buried here. All this time I assumed that my becoming a Canadian citizen was an automatic relinquishment of my US citizenship. Now I found out it did not.
I became a landed immigrant in 1966 and a Citizen of Canada in 1974. I have been living as a Canadian citizen in good faith due to my oaths taken in 1974 all these years. I taught school in Germany for 2 years, so I have not lived in the US since 1964. I was born in the US.
So do I have to take in the forms for relinquishment myself or can I send them to the consulate in Calgary. Thanx for your help. Uli.LikeLike
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Thank you @OutragedCanadian
It is true that sharing stories here and learning of others does help.
I even have a US passport (OMG!) that I applied for in 2008. Why hasn’t the US government contacted me since then about my unlawful behaviour ?
I will be doing my part to help the ADCS in our fight, and that also makes me feel that some good is coming out of all this. I am afraid, but not afraid enough that I won’t fight back.LikeLike
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@ Uli
Yes, you need to appear at the Calgary consulate to ultimately receive the coveted CLN (Certificate of Loss of Nationality) but the good news is your CLN will be back-dated to 1974 therefore no tax filing obligations and no $450 fee — unless you did something in the interim to “activate” your US citizenship like voting in a US election, traveling on a US passport, filing US taxes, etc.
The procedure at the Calgary consulate is this:
1) E-mail the consulate at Calgary-ACS@state.gov to inform them that you wish to book a relinquishing appointment (not renunciation). Just give them a brief reason why you are relinquishing (actually re-confirming your 1974 relinquishing act) not renouncing.
2) The consulate will e-mail you the forms they want you to fill out (DS-4079 and a questionnaire entitled “Relinquishment of U.S. Citizenship”).
3) Fill out the forms and return them to the consulate. (ASK here at the Maple Sandbox or the Isaac Brock Society if you are uncertain about any of the questions.)
NOTE #1: You need an up-to-date version of Adobe Reader to return these forms by e-mail.
NOTE #2: If you are unsuccessful at e-mailing the forms you can print them and send them by snail-mail to:
United States Consulate General
1000, 615 Macleod Trail S.E.
Calgary, AB, Canada T2G 4T8
NOTE #3: Save ALL e-mail correspondence (to and from) and copies of anything sent by snail-mail.
4) When the consulate gets the filled out forms they will inform you what the next available relinquishing appointment date is and then you confirm whether or not you accept that date.
5) Be sure to bring all the original documents the consulate requires when you appear for your relinquishing appointment (e.g. birth certificate, Canadian citizenship certificate, etc.)
NOTE: Get a copy of your citizenship oath taken in 1974. Lynne can tell you how to find this if you no longer have it.
6) Wait for your CLN to arrive and then present that to any bank which doubts you are a Canadian citizen and ONLY a Canadian citizen.
Good luck!LikeLike
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Uli,
If you choose to claim your relinquishment from decades ago, it should be a simple process at the Calgary Consulate.
http://calgary.usconsulate.gov/service/booking-appointments.html gives the email address that you will need to book an appointment…
For information on how to renounce or relinquish your U.S. citizenship at the Consulate in Calgary, send your request to Calgary_ACS@state.gov. They will then send you the required forms and the Questionnaire that Calgary uses to prepare all of the necessary paperwork you will sign at your appointment. Be sure to tell them that you will be claiming your relinquishment from 1974 when you became a Canadian citizen.
Reports of other people’s U.S. Consulate / Embassy expatriation experiences can be found at the link here: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/consulate2/, many Calgary U.S. Consulate experiences reported there, including mine.
…and now I see you have gotten a lot of good information from EmBee.
Best to you!LikeLike
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LivingtoRenounce,
It is criminal what our Harper government has allowed to override Canadian law. Are you in Canada? Outraged is absolutely correct — you have done nothing wrong so don’t castigate yourself.
Stay tuned here and at IsaacBrockSociety.ca for what is developing for a legal challenge. Support (and try to get others to support) that as much as you can as it is our best option for turning around the injustice. We need to stick together for that and for the support and experience we can give each other.
Read this synopsis of the information session in London, ON http://maplesandbox.ca/2014/synopsis-solving-u-s-citizenship-problem-london-ontario/ It could be beneficial to attend such a session if one comes up near you. In the meantime you can check out citizenshipsolutions.ca.LikeLike
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Thanks Calgary411,
I live in Montreal and would love to have a seminar in my area.
I religiously follow Isaac Brock (it’s actually the first thing I do in the morning). Reading that and Maple Sandbox has been a tremendous help in understanding all this.LikeLike
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LivingtoRenounce,
Of course you are in Canada. I’m answering too many comments and confusing myself.
Situations like yours will put fire into the belly of us all to carry on and raise the funds necessary for litigation.
Take special care!LikeLike
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Travelling around Liberal Obama supporting Washington State, I tell anybody who will listen that I have renounced. Most listening curiously, and after careful explanation, understand my position, and are absolutely astonished that such issues exist. Most Americans inside the USA have no idea what’s going on.
But in Sequim Washington last week I did meet an elderly fellow who was a US citizen born in Norway. He was aware of the issues, and was so angry that he informed me that he was going back to Norway, and would hand in his US passport after doing so.
I also met a Canadian lady who naturalized as a US citizen 35 years ago. Her husband is dying and she is arranging her affairs to move back to New Brunswick after he dies. She told me she was concerned about this because an American court ruled that she is no longer a Canadian citizen.
I laughed, and using some rather crude language advised her to tell the American judge to put his ruling where the sun doesn’t shine. That is a decision for the Canadian authorities, and not some arrogant, self righteous American judge. Bloody hell!!! The arrogance of it!!!!LikeLike
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Arctic Grayling,
Thanks for spreading this word in Washington State. Would you talk to a few of my relatives there?
Good for the show of good common sense by the Norwegian fellow in Sequim, who decides to leave and go to Norway, as well as the CANADIAN woman who will return to New Brunswick. They will tell others. I wish them well.
Bloody hell indeed!LikeLike
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@calgary411
The Canadian lady (I am guessing about 60 years old) was born in New Brunswick and lived there until she was 20.
She is Canadian no matter what that uppity American judge thinks. That judge obviously doesn’t know his/her place.
What I find particularly striking down here is the number of people who say they would dump their US citizenship if they had a second citizenship to fall back upon. Most do not have the options that members of this forum possess.LikeLike
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ArcticGrayling,
“What I find particularly striking down here is the number of people who say they would dump their US citizenship if they had a second citizenship to fall back upon.”
is eye-opening and sad many persons in the US are at that point because of the situations they feel they no longer have any control over.
AND,
“Most do not have the options that members of this forum possess.”
We are indeed lucky to be on the other side of that border in our fight. I feel especially bad for those who have reached the shores of the US looking for the elusive American Dream, now with Permanent Resident status and trapped within the US border with the same obligations of citizenship-based for the funds they send back to family in their “old country” as we are for using our local Canadian “foreign financial institutions” — and the penalties for not having known. Where is the responsibility for advising those persons before they ever are granted a green card?LikeLike
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@ArcticGreyling: I am really curious. Why was the woman in an American court about her Canadian citizenship?
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@ Lynne
I was struck by that too, so I asked her. She said it happened when she became a US citizen many years ago. She took out citizenship after she married her American husband, who is now in palliative care.
She said she wasn’t concerned about it at the time, but now that her husband is dying, she wants to re-establish her Canadian ties. I told her that there was zero question in my mind that she would get her Canadian passport. Just produce her birth certificate, and she will have it.LikeLike
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@ArcticGreyling: At one time Canadian women who married men who were not Canadian lost their Canadian or British subject citizenship. They are now considered “lost Canadians” and can apply to have their citizenship reinstated. I think that changed with the Citizenship Act of 1947.
So, if she is around 60, that would not affect her. She may have become a U.S. citizen at a time when neither Canada nor the US recognized dual citizenship. I think that changed around 1977 for Canada. Others like Pacifica probably have more specific information and her citizenship should be recognized now.
The U.S. citizenship oath requires renunciation of other citizenship. However, if she didn’t formally renounce her Canadian citizenship with Canada, Canada would still consider her Canadian and she should be able te return to Canada with no problems from Canada. The IRS and FATCA will, however, be a huge issue for her.LikeLike
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@ Calgary 411
I think I have told this story before, but I will repeat it. In March I was on the practice range of a golf club in Colombia. I was waiting my turn for a lesson from the club pro. In the kiosk next to the range I was talking to a young Colombian woman who is being coached by the same pro. She was prepping herself for an attempt at the Q School for the LPGA.
She had attended a college in California on a golf scholarship, spoke excellent English, and comes from a wealthy Colombian family with extensive agricultural land holdings. I assumed that she would some day, if she did not already, have a proprietary and signatory position on her family’s businesses. She said that I assumed correctly.
So while I wished her the best of luck in the Q school, I advised her of the consequences of getting either the green card or citizenship. It would drag her family’s holdings in Colombia into the IRS dragnet. She was astonished. She had no idea. I advised her, and she agreed, that she should only play in tournaments that a visitor’s visa (which she has) would allow, and that if there are options on a women’s European tour, that would be better.
For a long time I wondered why guys like Olazabal, Ballesteros, Faldo, Montgomerie, and Woosnam did not play full time on the American Tour. Why is McIroy not full time?
Now I know why.LikeLike
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Thanx for all the rich information. I have always traveled on a Canadian passport in North America, Europe and Japan. BUT in 2006 I was traveling in the US and had a stopover in Denver. There I had to go through American Customs. The Customs Officer asked me what I was doing with a Canadian passport. I told her I was a Canadian Citizen and had thus relinquished my American Citizenship as of 1974. She yelled at me and said that I was still an American not matter what. Then she said it was illegal for an American citizen to travel on a foreign passport. I could go to jail and face fines. She also told me that I would not be let out of the USA without an American Passport, or I would not be let back in to the USA without an American Passport. Everyone around was shocked as most were Canadians on the flight.I was quite frightened. When I got back to Winnipeg where I was living I obtained an American passport when the Consulate was visiting there. I was very resentful and upset.but I was following the law as it was explained to me by the Customs Official. I used the passport twice, then put it away in storage. I was afraid I had compromised my Canadian Citizenship and done something wrong vis-a-vis the Americans. I have voted in all city, provincial and federal elelctions. I have received a national award for my work with the Buddhist families in the Edmonton tornado and national recognition for my work with the truth and reconciliation commission. I am very Canadian. Will this one ‘slip up’ prevent me form getting a CLN? It is the only time in almost 40 years that I ‘slipped.up.” I feel that in Canada Canadian law prevails and if that says I relinquished my American citizenship in becoming a Canadian in 1974, then that is the way it is for me. Is my only option never to travel in the USA again, or have others had a CLN while holding an American Passport? I am still upset with the incorrect information given to my by the Customs Official but I was frightened and felt I had no other recourse. Since then I travel on my Canadian Passport as before the incident in 1966. So far there has been no major incidents, only questioning my abut the length of time I have been ‘up there.’ They often ask me if I plan to return to the US and of course I say never. I tell them I have bought a cemetery plot so I am staying permanently. Uli
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@Uli: It was American law in 1974 that you relinquished your U.S. citizenship. If you apply for a CLN, you should include a description of exactly what you said here–how you were threatened by an American Customs Officer that you must have an American passport and you got one only because you thought you had no other recourse based on that threat and misinformation
One important question. Were you over the age of 18 when you became a Canadian citizen? if you were a minor, that could be a huge problem.
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@ Lynne
I didn’t ask her whether she intended to remain American. She herself is a retired police woman having served somewhere in the eastern States. I would suppose she has a police pension, is receiving or will receive social security, and I would also suppose that there are issues on any rights of survivorship regarding any pension or pensions her dying husband may have.
You understand that I am only speculating here.
So she may very well have compelling reasons to remain an American citizen even if she is living in Canada. I don’t know, and I didn’t ask.
Given her current circumstances, I thought it insensitive to discuss those issues with her.LikeLike
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@ArcticGreyling: It sounds like you gave her enough information that she will be aware she should check out IRS ramifications before moving back to Canada, but not too much to increase her stress during an already difficult time in her life.
It also sounds like you may have been able to assure her she is still a Canadian citizen.LikeLike
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ArticGrayling,
Interesting indeed.
If the US and/or the media doesn’t do its job to inform affected US Persons Abroad, we will — one person at a time. Good work!LikeLike
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@ calgary411
I am trending more toward the opinion that is better to advise people against becoming US persons in the first place, rather than being so concerned about people who are already in the dragnet.
I participate in a blog of ex-pat retirees who spend either all or part of the year in Colombia. From time to time, a thread topic is a “second passport”. It’s a topic that almost the exclusive domain of American participants. Others are not the least bit concerned.
An American passport is no prize. I am already aware of American ex-pats living there who are having issues, either with their banks, or with their employers in cases where they have signatory positions.LikeLike
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I would like to have a copy of the oath of allegiance made by me in 1974. Then , with all the information you will then have given me, I will set the process in motion. Thanx so much for your website. It is always scary dealing with big, complex bureaucracies all alone.
I was born a few months before WWII started, I was well past my 18th birthday in 1974. Thanks again, I am looking forward to your response.
Who is Lynne and how do I contact her for this request? UliLikeLike
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@Uli: I am Lynne. Please see my comment about your being bullied into getting a U.S. passport.
Here is the information on how to get a copy of your oath from your citizenship file. There is a fee of $5.
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/DEPARTMENT/atip/requests-atip.asp
The information from 1974 was stored on microfiche, so it is hard to read, but it should be legible. That will take a few weeks to arrive.
Do you have a copy of your actual citizenship certificate? You will need more than a photo citizenship card. They do not have the date of your actual citizenship-just the date of issue.
If you don’t have your original citizenship, you will need to get a certificate that shows your date of citizenship. That is separate from getting a copy of your oath.
To get a citizenship certificate with the date of your citizenship, check this site for how to get it. http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/citizenship/proof.asp
The fee for the citizenship certificate is $75. You will need to submit citizenship photos, but the certificate will not have the photo on it.
When I applied a copy of mine two years ago, they told me it would take 10 months. I had it in about two months. I think the more information you give them, the faster they are able to process it.I hope that helps. You may be aware we are planning to mount a constitutional and legal challenge to FATCA. I hope you will consider donating to the effort.
You can learn more:
I hope you will continue to hang out here. You are among friends.
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Uli. Why bother? Why do anything? It seems to be working fine for you as is.
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@ArcticG.
I believe we met in the Toronto US consulate on Monday, 16 Sept. 2013 at 2pm…I was the guy with the glasses sitting in front of you.
Anyway, if that’s you (and I recall your Colombian links so I think it is you): have you got your CLN yet??? I am still waiting for mine and am starting to wonder if they lost the file…LikeLike
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@ Michael,
I think it’s just stuck in the backlog. Might be a good idea to send them an e-mail. Don’t know it will help, but it can’t hurt. In my case (I’m 2012 when things were moving faster), I e-mailed Toronto after 6 months, they wrote back that my application was in DC and hadn’t been approved yet – turned out it got approved 2 days later – probably a coincidence, but who knows? I do know of three cases (Canada, France, Indonesia), though, where CLN applications “fell through the cracks,” so in those cases making inquiry really did help.
CLNs are really slow coming from Toronto. They were taking 10-12 months since we started tracking, 2011, up til mid-2012 consulate meetings. But then, most unfortunately, after the improvement in 2012, it didn’t continue to improve but reverted and has been really (IMO ridiculously) slow again beginning with applications made mid-2013.
Persons reporting to Brock, who attended at Toronto consulate August 2013 or earlier, have either got their CLN or we’ve lost contact with a few of them. CLN delivery time for those persons who were there in Summer 2013 took about 9 or 10 months.
These are the people in our records at Brock, who attended at Toronto September 2013 – July 2014.
People still waiting (10):
Kingston – Sep 2013 – s. 349(a)(1) (naturalisation)
Mrs. Kingston – Sep 2013 – s. 349(a)(1) (naturalisation)
Atticus – Sep 2013 – s. 349(a)(1) (naturalisation)
Michael – Oct 2013 – s. 349(a)(1) (naturalisation)
Ian – Oct 2013 – s. 349(a)(5) (renunciation)
Global Citizen – Dec 2013 – s. 349(a)(1) (naturalisation)
LM – Apr 2013 – s. 349(a)(5) (renunciation)
Global Citizen’s family member – Apr 2014 – s. 349(a)(1) (naturalisation)
Kathy – Jun 2014 – s. 349(a)(4) (govt employment)
Swanee – Jul 2014 – s. 349(a)(1) (naturalisation)
People who have received their CLNs (2):
Badger – Dec 2013 – s. 349(a)(1) (naturalisation) – received Jun 2014
My Kitty – Jan 2014 – s. 349(a)(4) (govt employment) – received May 2014
from the Isaac Brock Society Consulate Report Directory http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/consulate2/LikeLike
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@ Michael…..
I remember you….I think. I was there on September 16 of last year.
Do you live in Toronto? If you do, we should hook up for a morning coffee next time I am there. When I am there, I usually have morning coffee at Timothy’s in Bloor West Village.
What I remember about that day was the conversation among the people waiting there. The vitriol toward Obama coming out of my mouth was noticeable, as it was from some others there. I will never forgive that ignorant (you know…….the Kenyan tax cheat…….the guy who said there are 57 states and that Canada has a president), narcissistic buffoon for putting me to so much trouble.
The mainstream media (including the CBC) is his praetorian guard, for which he can do no wrong, so I hold them in huge disdain too. His invasion of our sovereignty does not seem to be a problem for the CBC (Canadian Brainwashing Corporation).
To answer your question…..I don’t have my CLN yet, and frankly I don’t care. I have filed my terminal returns, and take great pleasure at being a refusenik at US border crossings (always the truth…..though not always the whole truth, always polite, and humour thrown in when the opportunity presents itself). I have been recorded at several border crossings now as one who has renounced.LikeLike
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@AG
Yes, we practically had an expatriation party going on. I have expected the vice-consul to stick her head out of her office and shout at us to keep it down so we don’t scare off all the Asian kids downstairs coming to grovel for their chance of over-paying for college in the States.
I just want the CLN so I can frame the sucker. LOL. My bank hasn’t and likely won’t ever ask me about anything. I don’t even plan to visit the States if I can possibly avoid it.
But the CLN is just a trophy, and I want it, that’s all.LikeLike
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@P
OK thanks a lot, as long as I am not the only guy from September 2013 then I am not worried.LikeLike
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@ Michael…
If the vice consul had made any comments, I would have extolled the virtues of a Canadian passport and the suggested that he/she join the party. I tell any American who will listen that with the narcissistic gang they have running the show in Washington now, they would be better off if they had remained loyal to King George III.
I am actually quite surprised at the number of uni-national Americans who agree with me.LikeLike
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MY CPA is very paranoid about the IRS and wants to cover all the bases properly. Also I still get a bad attitude and sometimes extensive questions at the border by the USA officials. I would like to have the CNL to add to my defense. Many are unaware of the facts of citizenship in 1974. They simply dont believe me when I explain it to them. BUT your suggestion seems good to me. I will think on it . Maybe I should just avoid the issue entirely and save myself a trip to Calgary. Uli.
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Thanx Lynn. I finally got the information from the Consulate in Calgary and am in the process of filling it out by hand, carefully. Yes I have all the documentation of my citizenship ceremony in Edmonton in 1974. I became a landed immigrant in 1968, after teaching 2 years in Germany in a private Gymnasium for bilingual classes of university bound students. I havent lived in the US since 1966. I can’t find the documentation for the landed immigrant status.In those days, we had to be a landed immigrant for 3 years before applying for citizenship, I believe. However all the documentation for the citizenship certificate is in order.
The same is true for my partner who became a Canadian in 1984. I wonder if she is eligible for relinquishment as well. Thanx for your supportive comments. Someone suggested that since things have been going so well I might just not need to worry about. CNL hmmm pondering. This is my partners point of view. I am considering of donating a modest sum for your challenge. It the link you gave enough to make the donation,however how small? I will let you know how the filling out of the forms for relq. are going. I am taking it slowly page by page. UliLikeLike
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Uli,
Thanks for the update on your claim to relinquishment at the Calgary U.S. Consulate.
If your partner has the same facts as you and has not done anything “US” since becoming a Canadian citizen in 1984, she too should be eligible to claim relinquishment — her relinquishing act becoming a Canadian citizen in 1984.
You may not have read, but Lynne (who you are replying to) has had an accident and is right now under hospital care. Here is a link to the post that describes and gives updates on how Lynne is doing. http://maplesandbox.ca/2014/lynne-blaze-had-a-great-fall-july-25-update/LikeLike
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@Ulli, thanks for the update. I agree with Calgary411, likely your partner also committed a relinquishing act, assuming she hasn’t done anything contrary since that act.
Whether or not a person goes for the CLN is a very personal choice, and I waver back and forth on it, myself. Several people have recommended that a person get some professional help, from a lawyer well-versed in the issue, like John Richardson. Again, that’s a personal choice, depending upon how comfortable a person is on dealing with the US consulate themselves, without legal advice.
You can donate any amount to the cause. Although the ‘donate’ buttons on the site start at $250, you can donate any amount by using email transfer. That’s what I did(twice) and it works well. You can also mail a cheque.
http://www.adcs-adsc.ca/Donate.html
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Sorry to hear about Lynne, hope she recovers to continue her work. She has helped me and I appreciate it. Who is John Richardson and how do I contact him. Fees?
My partner might feel better dealing through a lawyer.
We also have to face the expenses of a flight to Calgary and hotel costs, etc. We will start saving for that. I just retired this year. It is an adjustment, but turning out to be a good one for my health and nerves. I have been employed sine I was 16 and being without a job, even at 75 is difficult for me, but I am getting used to the idea.
I am filling out a copy of the form by hand then doing a final copy in ink. It will take me awhile because I want to be careful.
Also gathering some required materials like original Citizenship letter and a copy of the oath and birth certificate.
I am loath to send them original copies. Would I get them back or are good printer copies OK?
Job for today: get copied of the oath(s)LikeLike
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I have been navigating the web site for the government and see no specific place to click copy of oath.1974 and 1984. It just has generalized Citizen Ship click then payment. I need some help navigating the site. Can some one help. Uli
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Maple Sandbox Historical Archive – 2012 to 2016
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A passionate baseball fan blog celebrating America's favorite pastime.
Maple Sandbox Historical Archive - 2012 to 2016 
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