There is a bit of anxiety concerning what happens at the US border once you have a CLN or once you’ve applied for one. Or for that matter, if you have a Canadian passport that shows a US birthplace, have no US passport and don’t want one, and haven’t yet decided whether a CLN is a good idea for you. If you’re one of any of these concerned people, this post and thread are for you.
My wife and I just returned from a week-long family visit to the US. We travelled by air, crossing US customs and immigration at pre-clearance at Pearson Airport in Toronto. My wife had applied for a relinquishment CLN several months earlier. She is still waiting for it, but in the meantime, the vice-consul told her at the interview that her CLN application file is now on the State Department website and is accessible to DHS staff at the border, if there is any question about why she is crossing the border on a Canadian passport that shows a US birthplace. (If you have a CLN or have applied for one, there is no way you can possibly have a US passport. If you had one before applying for the CLN, you are required to surrender it during the application process. Once you’ve sworn either the relinquishment or renunciation oath, you cannot be issued a US passport. So it would be absurd for a border guard to insist that you present a US passport at the border.)
Both of us have Canadian passports with US birthplaces. I have a CLN that was issued to me in 1976, based on my relinquishment upon becoming a Canadian in 1975. I would assume, in fact I would hope, that my CLN is flagged on the DOS and DHS computer systems; I’d be disappointed if it weren’t. But, I’m not going to ask a border guard or any other US official if it is. I don’t believe in kicking sleeping bears; such behaviour tends to be bad for the health.
Our border crossing last week was our first crossing since my wife applied for her CLN, so we were a little nervous, on her account (I always carry a photocopy of my CLN with my passport when I travel). Needlessly, as it turned out.
The pre-clearance area at Pearson wasn’t very busy; we were referred to an agent almost immediately after we arrived in the area. The agent examined both our passports, then scanned both of them into his computer. He examined the computer screen. He asked us how long we would be visiting the US, the purpose of the visit, and the usual questions about what we were bringing into the US (no tobacco, no alcohol) and the value of any gifts we’d be leaving behind in the US. He then entry-visa-stamped both our passports, initialed the visa stamps, and wished us a nice trip. No questions about citizenship, about why no US passport, about CLNs, nor any reference to the T word. He didn’t need to ask where we were staying; I had to give the hotel name, address and phone number to the airline when getting the boarding passes (which information I believe is now routinely shared between the US and Canada and probably many other countries), and also had to give that information on the US customs declaration form. No ogres awaited us as we got off the plane in the US. At no time during our week-long stay at the hotel were we ever contacted by any official of any level of US government. Our return to Canada was uneventful.
So, at least in our case, two Canadians born in the US, both of whom have relinquished their US citizenship, crossed the border together on their Canadian passports in mid-August 2012 without incident.
What if you have a Canadian passport that shows a US birthplace, don’t have a US passport and don’t want one because you don’t consider yourself a US citizen, and want to cross the US border? Stories here are mixed. My wife was in those shoes until a few months ago. She’s been across the US border for decades on her Canadian passport with US birthplace and has never once been “cautioned” or “warned” that she “has” to have a US passport to go back. But we have two friends who have been cautioned. Both our friends want to keep crossing the US border, because they both have adult children and now grandchildren living in the US, whom they want to visit. One has decided he wants to remain a dual US-Canada citizen, got a US passport, and spent thousands of dollars to become compliant with IRS demands (he hadn’t filed any US tax forms since becoming a Canadian). The other friend has absolutely no desire or intention ever to get a US passport, never has had one, also hasn’t filed US tax forms since becoming a Canadian more than 30 years ago, and has been “warned” when crossing by land (never, so far, during air crossings). Each time she has been warned, she smiled calmly and said essentially “I’m a Canadian, I’m not an American, this is my passport, and I want to cross on it.” She’s had her name entered at least once in the US border computers over this, has then been let in, and has subsequently gone back across without any further problems, at least not yet.
The lawyer my wife and I consulted in my wife’s case has a client who so far has been “warned” four times and still crosses; the warnings have delayed his border crossings, but he still gets in. As far as we can tell, so far these “warnings” seem to be random, at the whim of the particular border officer, and don’t (yet) have any serious consequences. But that could always change.
On the subject of visa stamps: since August 2011, my wife and I have crossed the US border five times on various family visits, twice by car (in Vermont) and three times by air (twice at Pearson and once clearing US immigration in Newark NJ). All three air crossings netted us US entry visa stamps on our passports (as a matter of what seems to be routine now at the airports; we didn’t ask for the visa stamps nor did we need to); none of the car crossings resulted in visa stamps (we presented our passports at both those crossings). Thanks to the air crossings, we now both can prove beyond any doubt that we’ve been admitted to the US carrying Canadian passports that show US birthplaces. Our feisty friend who keeps crossing in spite of warnings on land has also acquired a collection of US visa stamps in her Canadian passport, when she flies into the US.
Things can always change at the border. Lightning can strike at any time in the future. An incoming asteroid could destroy life or civilization as we know it on Earth. So far, however, the sky is not falling. We will enjoy what’s left of the summer, and we look forward to the maple leaves turning this Fall. We’ll be vigilant and prepared when we cross the border, but we aren’t losing any sleep over the issue of our passports and citizenships, at least not yet (if ever).
I invite other US-borns living in Canada (or elsewhere outside the US) who have Canadian (or other) passports showing a US birthplace, and who do not have a US passport, whether they have a CLN, have applied for one, or haven’t applied for one, to share their border-crossing experiences on this thread in the coming months, especially if anything disturbing happens. When you report your experience, please identify whether you have or have applied for a CLN (and if so, whether it was a renunciation or relinquishment), or not, and also indicate whether your experience was at an airport or at a land crossing. If you feel comfortable doing so, also indicate which airport or border crossing was involved.
I hope this thread can serve both to provide some comfort level (for as long as that’s appropriate) and, as needed, an early-warning system for things that may come, and perhaps some ammunition to use to try to nudge our government to take issue with the US over this if things start to get out of hand. (Remember Blaine Washington …)
PS I just edited the title of the thread, which originally read “Canadian passport” instead of “non-US passport.” Sorry for the Canada-centric tendencies; I am Canadian and that’s my perspective, but I recognize and respect that there are lots of US expats/former USPs (to use Johnnb’s point which I also have raised elsewhere) who live in countries other than Canada and who share some of these concerns. Not sure whether people entering the US from, for example, Switzerland (to pick a country which raises some hackles in parts of US officialdom these days) will get treated differently from people crossing from Canada. In theory everyone should be handled the same way, but we all know that there’s always a big gap between theory and practice. If you reply to this thread with border-crossing examples, please indicate from what country you were coming into the US if it wasn’t Canada and if you think that may have made a difference to your treatment.
Crossing the US Border on a non-US passport showing a US birthplace
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269 responses to “Crossing the US Border on a non-US passport showing a US birthplace”
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@ CBValley,
Welcome to Maple Sandbox.
You may find some answers in this post and thread
http://maplesandbox.ca/2012/renunciation-and-relinquishment-what-are-the-differences-is-there-a-difference/
Basically there are 7 ways in which a person can relinquish their citizenship, all set out in s. 349(a) of the Immigration and Nationality Act — one of these 7 acts is renunciation. (There’s a link to this section of the Act in the above-mentioned post.)
An important thing to know is were you a dual citizen since birth or did you naturalise as a Canadian citizen? Have you performed a potentially relinquishing act as set out in s. 349(a) of the Immigration and Nationality Act? If so, have you acted as a US citizen since the date you performed the potentially relinquishing act — eg, voted, used a passport (unless under duress), etc?
I strongly suggest you do not start the process of applying for a ssn or filing taxes or do anything before first learning more about this so you can determine exactly what your citizenship status with regards to the US is and weigh the options to decide the best course of action of take.LikeLike
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Thank you for the response.
I was born in the US, moved away when I was 1. Moved to Canada when I was 4 and became a Canadian citizen when I was 9. Unfortunately, my parents opted to keep renewing my US passport as it was stipulated that crossing the US as a US citizen, you should present yourself as a US citizen. I also used my US passport about 13 years ago when I was under the same understanding, only to be harassed by customs – to which, I never used it again. I have not renewed the passport; and quite frankly, would have never used it had I not been informed by the Canadian embassy website that I should present myself as a US citizen when entering the US. I have never voted in the US and do not have a SSN (yet). I do not necessary want to apply for a SSN and further screw up my chances of relinquishment but at the same time, do not want to delay this entire ordeal more than I have.
I am not sure how I will know what my US citizenship status is with the USG unless I apply for relinquishment and find out? Based on my history, I feel that I would not qualify for relinquishment.
Thoughts?LikeLike
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I’m crazy busy right now with plans for another website to launch our Charter Challenge fund (Stay tuned everyone!), so I hope Pacifica will help you work through this quagmire.
It will be important for her to know when you became a citizen. The fact you were a minor may complicate things. You may be able to make a case that your passport was obtained for you when you were a minor and you got one as an adult because of a misunderstanding from the US Embassy website. You could then share the experience about when you used it and why you have never used it since.
Someone may also want to move this discussion over to the Relinquish/Renounce thread so there is a record there.
Most importanly, CBValley, don’t panic. Don’t rush into anything. Learn all you can before making a decision.LikeLike
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@Blaze
@CBValley
There is a possibilty of loss of citizenship if you came of age before 1978 and also did not present yourself to swear allegiance to the US at a US consulate within three years…but those three years, if I understand correctly, also had to run out before 1978. If that seems to be CBValley’s guess, better to check with a more reliable source than me.LikeLike
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@ CB Valley,
As Petit Suisse mentioned, the rules for minors were different before 1978. So, could you let us know the year you were born as it could make a difference.
I’m not really up on the pre-1978 rules for minors, so best I leave that for someone else to answer. Anyway, if pre-1978 rules for minors don’t apply to you, this is what I think. Bear in mind of course it’s not legal advice, just what I picked up since I became caught up in this US citizenship mess.
I don’t think you’d likely be successful with a relinquishment based on naturalisation. But you might have relinquished your US citizenship if you worked for the government or were a commissioned or non-commissioned officer in the military.
Documents cited:
Immigration and Nationality Act
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1481
Department of State Foreign Affairs ManualClick to access 18-04-2012_1318_971.pdf
(1)
I don’t think you’ll be considered to have been able to form the intent to relinquish at age 9. Section 349(a) Immigration and Nationality Act states :
“(1) obtaining naturalization in a foreign state upon his own application or upon an application filed by a duly authorized agent, after having attained the age of eighteen years;”
I haven’t seen anything about minors and s. (1) relinquishment in the Dept of State Foreign Affairs Manual.
FWIW, there is a section that deals with minors and renunciation. It says at 7 FAM 1292 (i),
“Children under 16 are presumed not to have the requisite maturity and knowing intent;”
Presumably that presumption is rebuttable, but age 9 would be really young, and also there is no age specified for renunciation ((349(a)(5) Immigration and Nationaitty Act), whereas it does state 18 for relinquishing under s. (1). So, unfortunately I don’t think s. (1) is looking very positive.
(2)
But there are two possible relinquishing acts that you might have performed as an adult.
s. 349(a) (3) “entering, or serving in, the armed forces of a foreign state if … (B) such persons serve as a commissioned or non-commissioned officer;”
s. 349 (a) (4) (A) “accepting, serving in, or performing the duties of any office, post, or employment under the government of a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after attaining the age of eighteen years if he has or acquires the nationality of such foreign state;”
(3)
There’s also a third possibility, but it doesn’t seem to apply easily to most people.
s. 349(a) (2) “taking an oath or making an affirmation or other formal declaration of allegiance to a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after having attained the age of eighteen years;”
There’s a four pronged requirement for such an oath (7 FAM 1252(h)). Prong (4) is
“The making and receipt of the oath or affirmation alters the affiant’s legal status with respect to the foreign state,”
which appears to mean that if you’re already a citizen of Canada, making an oath of allegiance to Canada doesn’t change your legal status with respect to Canada.LikeLike
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Back to the border, perhaps when being unnecessarily hassled a person could whip out their smartphone and ask the official if it’s alright to record the conversation. I know, it would probably make thing worse but I’d love to see the reaction.
I’m US-born, naturalized in 1973 and will soon be informing Uncle Sam of my relinquishment. Have crossed the border by plane and car several times over the years and my POB has never been questioned. Last time by car in September, before that by air in October 2012. While it appears that all we are seeing so far are a few power-tripping border officials and nothing systemic, I don’t like not having peace of mind. Will be glad to have the CLN but I know that’s not a guarantee either.
Thanks to all the contributors here and the site administrators. Thank goodness for the Internet.LikeLike
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Just to give a bit of an update. I crossed into the US by car on March 6, 2014 using my CDN passport with no issues, albeit, I disclosed to the US Border guard that I was crossing for the purposes of obtaining a SSN. He was jovial and welcomed me “home”. Total time spent chatting with him was 30 seconds.
Went to the Bellingham SS office. Great guy who dealt with me. No issues. Very professional and understanding of my situation.
As my trip was purely for that, I returned within two hours (no shopping, not even gas…get the hell outta there). Using my CDN passport, I got hassled coming back into Canada. Perhaps it was the short duration of my trip or the fact that I was entering the US for a SSN. He kept asking about a possible job I had in the states. I had to explain to him the entire tax situation and that I live/work in Canada before a 2 minute silent stare at his computer before he said “Fine. Go.” Not sure how long I spent sitting there but felt like a root canal.LikeLike
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@CB Valley: Why have you decided to become compliant? Are you aware CRA does and and will not collect for IRS?
What the heck business was it of the Canadian border guard if you have a job in the US or not? If you are a dual citizen, you have the right to work in either country.
Combined with IRSCompliant’s recent experience of having to show his US passport to be able to board an Air Canada flight to return to Canada, this is getting downright insane.LikeLike
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I decided to become compliant for a few reasons:
1) Travel. I like to frequent the US at least once a year.
2) I have found a local, honest and reasonably priced accountant so my compliance costs are low.
3) I may work in the US later in my life.
4) If I do not renounce and my wife and I decide to move to the US upon retirement, then it’d be an easier process
I am not (or less) concerned with the IRS coming after me, per se. Nor do I think CRA will. And even if they did, I have nothing to hide. I pay taxes honestly. My concerns lie more with spending thousands of dollars on a family trip only to be denied entry into the US due to taxes. For me, with the low cost of compliance, it’s not worth it. If I get denied anyway, well, at least I can say that I did everything I could.
I have many issues with the entire thing, don’t get me wrong. I’m not simply rolling over for the sake of it. If I had no intention of ever setting foot in the US again, I’d give them the finger and not think about it again. I did my research as best as I could, discussed the matter with those in similar situations, discussed with my family and friends and made a decision that best suits my current and future situation. I’m not “at peace” with my decision as I feel intrinsically trespassed but I’d feel like that regardless. After much deliberation, I believe that this was the best decision for me and my family.LikeLike
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Thanks for being willing to share your reasons CB Valley. We all need to make the decisions that give us the most peace of mind–even if it isn’t complete peace.
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Thanks for the update CBValley, I’m glad to hear things went relatively well. Odd about about the CAnadian border guard, though.
What gives us peace of mind is unique to each of us. Good for you for doing research and then making up your mind and moving foward with your decision.
There are some people, in certain sectors of the work force, who might need to have the option of working in the U.S. for their careers. We all need to do what makes us feel best about looking after our families and ensuring our futures.
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CB Valley,
All well thought-out decisions have merit. You have compared the Pro’s and Con’s for you and made the decision right for you. Good work!
What you have shown with your decision based on research and looking into your future is just what each of us needs to do. Each of our cases differ so much from another.
Going forward from the point of our decisions, we must realize and deal with whatever consequences.LikeLike
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I’m travelling to the US in late May. I have a CDN passport but not a US. Given that the processing time for a US Passport is 4-6 weeks, I need to get on it if I’m to get one. I have an appointment already for next week but can always cancel if need be.
Has anyone had any stories lately about air travel? Good hopefully…LikeLike
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THIS IS WHY I AM CONFUSED!!!!! First is from the Ottawa Consulate. Second is from the Toronto Consulate. Love how they are both US consulates but are SO different in terms of direction.
If you are a dual U.S.-Canadian citizen you should always present yourself as a Canadian citizen when entering Canada and as a U.S. citizen when entering the United States.
http://canada.usembassy.gov/traveling_to_canada/entering-canada.html
U.S. law requires U.S. citizens to enter and depart the U.S. documented as U.S. citizens. Improperly documented U.S. citizens may be barred or delayed considerably at a port of entry.
http://toronto.usconsulate.gov/service/frequently-asked-questions.htmlLikeLike
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@CB valley “I did my research as best as I could, discussed the matter with those in similar situations, discussed with my family and friends and made a decision that best suits my current and future situation.”
you did the right thing for you based on the above. as each and every one of us have unquie situations that is all any one of us can do. what best suits our needsLikeLike
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@CB Valley: If you check back a few posts, you will find that Outraged travelled to US on a Canadian passport with a US place of birth. She didn’t have any problems.
She precleared US Customs in Calgary.
In January, KalC posted that clearing US Customs in Vancouver is now easier than ever.
You’re right, this is all very confusing and there are often mixed messages. I often think it’s intentional. Sorry I know that’s not much help.LikeLike
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I am going to “chance” it with just my CDN passport. Having said that, I’m probably chancing it even if I had a US passport tattooed to my butt. I think it’s more awkward if I presented as a US citizen with my toddler who is Canadian. I think I’ll keep it to Canadian.
I’ll update accordingly, whether it be in California or if US jails have decent wifi signals.LikeLike
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last week we transited at Pearson (what a confused zoo-why can’t they have some clear signage).
One dual with US birth place. 2 Canadian passports.
The only complaint the border guy had- I didn’t hand him the passports,boarding cards and new photocopied receipts in a neat manner!!!!! Be neat people.LikeLike
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I transited the States last week through LAX. We stayed overnight before continuing on. The official in uniform noticed the US birthplace on my Canadian passport. The conversation went something like this.
Agent: Where are you going?
Me: In transit to Vancouver.
Agent: You have a US birthplace. Why don’t you have a US passport?
Me: Canada is my destination.
Agent: This is the United States. Do you have a US passport?
Me: No.
Agent: Have you ever applied for one?
Me: Yes.
Agent: Why don’t you have one now?
Me: It has expired.
Agent: Have you applied for another one?
Me: No.
Agent: Why?
Me: I have lived in Canada since 1949. I feel no need for one, and I am Canadian by birth through my mom and dad.
Agent: That’s good to know. We are still checking for deserters.
Me: Mr. Carter gave them amnesty in 1977. Why is it that I know that and you apparently don’t? In any case, Canada has been my home since I was an infant.
Agent: Have you ever renounced citizenship?
Me: Yes.
Agent: Why didn’t you tell me at first?
Me: You didn’t ask me at first.
Agent: Why did you renounce?
Me: The more relevant question is why I would even want to keep it, but I will answer your question. Canada is a freer country. Americans think they have freedom, but they are not even free to leave. I don’t appreciate your government’s attempt at the extra territorial application of your law in my country. The United States is attempting to violate my country’s sovereignty. I do not wish to be a citizen of a country with such an arrogant attitude toward others.
Agent: You certainly have some strong opinions.
Me: Freedom of speech still exists here?
Agent: Yes.
She stamped my passport and wished me a pleasant trip.LikeLike
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@ ArcticGrayling. Wow, A.G. Some conversation. A tip of the refusnik hat to you. I don’t think I’d have the cojones to engage a US border guard in an exchange like that. While I agree US bullshit needs to be called when they deserve it (which is most of the time), it takes a strong constitution to toss it in their face like you did. Thankfully you are now safely back in Canada (presumably).
I carry a copy of US expatriation law in my glove box in case I need to “educate” a US customs goon but so far none of them have made an issue of my Canadian passport with US birthplace. My US passport isn’t even expired but I absolutely refuse to use it. It sits in a dresser drawer and that’s where it will remain. I’d rather be turned back than be forced to produce it.LikeLike
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@ maz57
I didn’t lie to the agent. I simply answered her questions. I offered no more information than was required to answer the question.
The way I look at it, the answer to a question simply has to be the truth. The answer need not be embellished with other information, even if additional information may be relevant. That’s why I didn’t volunteer the information about my renunciation. I only told her when she specifically asked.LikeLike
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Crossing the border by way of Vancouver airport was easy. I went to visit relatives in California for the holiday. The US customs agent did not appear to notice the New York birthplace on my Canadian passport. I greeted the agent in a nice, polite Canadian manner. He said have a good trip.
However, it was great to arrive safely back in Canada. I anticipate that it could get complicated to cross the US border in the future. My appointment for relinquishment of US citizenship comes up in two weeks. I have given myself time to be prepared, calm and polite for the interview so hope all goes well. I spend as little time as possible in the US and hope for any future trip to have a CLN.LikeLike
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Went to the US today just for a quick trip across the border in Maine.
My wife and I pulled up to the border guard and handed over our (Canadian) passports. He’s a very young guy and very polite but he looks at the passports and says, “You know you’re US citizens, right?” We say no and he starts telling us that we are unless we have renounced and then proceeds to mime raising his hand to take an oath of renunciation! We informed him that we had relinquished rather than renounced which he didn’t seem to understand so we offered him our CLNs. He looked them over and exclaimed in excited tones, “Wow! I’ve never seen one of these before. DS-4083, huh? Thanks. This is something really new to me. Have a nice time.”
I really think we made his day. Probably points to the difference between big city crossings and driving into very rural Maine. Total time at the border under four minutes.LikeLike
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Oh man I dropped off my wife and son at Vancouver airport for a short flight to Seattle. I have been to the states dozens of time just using CAD passport but I would bring US passport as a backup in case I lost my CAD passport (cannot do that now, the blue thing has been cancelled and have the CLN golden ticket). But because my son was going to a summer job in Seattle, the Dept of Homeland Insecurity kicked into full action. They spent an hour lecturing my son on the beauty of being an American and wondered many times why he does not have a US passport. After 2 hours (I was at home, having returned from the airport) I did manage to FAX them the Consular Report of Birth Abroad, which is the main document that children born outside USA can verify US citizenship. But my son never asked for US citizenship. My wife and son ended up missing the flight but there was another 2 hours later. They also put my son on a list and said that if he ever flew through YVR again he would have to have a US passport (this is like the “no fly” list for terrorists). What a totalitarian country!
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kermitzi,
It is believable to me — I’m sorry your son went through this experience. Will he see what the US is?
His experience seems to come under “a law is the law is the law” (per Mr. Mopsick?) except when it hasn’t been the law (ignored) for decades.
This is what happened to me at the border several years ago — I was told by a border official that he would let across the border “this time” but “the next time” it must be with a US passport. The rest is history told at Isaac Brock and Maple Sandbox.LikeLike
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Kermitzii, there is 1 inconsistency in your tale. You said your son was going for a summer job. Normally work in the south requires citizenship or a green card. If he was claiming citizenship, then the border guy could make a case.
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KalC/C411– My son got a summer job with Facebook which has a new branch in Seattle. I am proud of him. He is a US citizen as I was, but he never had a US passport just a Canadian birth certificate and passport. I did fax the consulate report of birth abroad which I filled out when he was 3. He should have brought that. He will stay right next to Pike Place market so he will have a distorted picture of the US. He should live in eastern Oregon. He will have to get a US passport in case he comes back to Vancouver briefly during the summer.
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@schubert – I just wanted to say that I find it fascinating reading comments like yours on this blog (and IsaacBrock) by Canadians who left the USA during the Vietnam war (70s in general).
Additionally, it illustrates that at one time borders and sovereignty meant something. I suspect we live in a world today where Canada/Europe would just send everyone back to Uncle Sam.LikeLike
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I crossed the border into Washington State last week. The official noticed immediately the previous entry stamps into the USA along with my US birthplace. He asked me straight out if I had renounced, to which I immediately replied “yes”.
He then advised me that I only have privilege of entry rather than right of entry. If I have any police record whatsoever, such as a DUI, he could refuse me entry. So he asked me if I had ever had dealings with the police, such as a DUI. I replied that, years ago, the police phoned me one time after a neighbour complained about me urinating on my front driveway, but that was about it. It was after my entire family and I had returned from a long trip, and there was a mad dash to the available bathrooms. He burst out laughing, stamped my passport, and wished me a pleasant trip.LikeLike
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PET airport Montreal to USA. Scanned passport with the new scanner-you answer the questions by touching ‘no to all’. It takes your photo & prints a receipt. You hand it to the very pleasant lady who asks ‘how long will you be in the states? Then she says ‘have a nice trip’. C’est tout!
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I was born & raised in Canada, never lived a day in the US and don’t have plans to. I have US citizenship through my father who received his as an adult. Don’t ask me how but he’s sadly since passed away and the history of why with him. I have a US passport & social insurance card. Both my US & Canadian passport have Mtl, QC Canada as my birthplace and I am deciding whether or not to renounce my US citizenship as it serves me no purpose. My concern is that once I renounce and even with a Canadian birthplace on my CDN passport that I’ll have trouble travelling to the US, that somehow I’ll be flagged at the border…
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@Mariposa, we can’t know what will happen in the future, how all of this will shake out. But I personally think that losing the US noose around your neck is worth a bit of bother at the border, if that did happen.Everyone’s situation is different though, and only you can weigh it all out and decide what’s best for you.
Any renouncers out there have any stories to share with Mariposa?LikeLike
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@Mariposa: Check out Arctic Greyling’s comment. He renounced, but only had a few questions in a U.S. airport.
Monalisa had a few more problems and had to answer several questions and be fingerprinted. However, I learned from that all non-U.S. and non-CAnadian citizens must be fingerprinted to enter the US. I was shocked at that. Monalisa is British, so that was why she was required to fingerprint.
Some members of Congress want to ban renunciants from ever entering the U.S. ever again. We don’t know if that will happen or not.LikeLike
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Crossed into the US yesterday on my Canadian passport with US birthplace:
Guard: Where do you live?
Me: M——. (Town near the border)
Guard: When did you leave Texas?
Me: Huh?
Guard: It says here you were born in Midland.
Me: That would be Midland, Michigan, not Midland, Texas. There are Midlands all over the place. We’ve even got a few in Canada.
Guard: Oh, I didn’t know that. I come from Midland, Texas. Where are you going?
Me: Portland.
Guard: For what purpose?
Me: Family visit.
Guard: What are you bringing back, er, taking down with you?
Me: Some clothes, and my golf clubs.
Guard: Have a nice day.
So the guy clearly noticed my US birthplace and made no issue of it at all. Is it possible they have been given instructions to back off on this? This was by car at a land crossing. Maybe airports are different. It sure wasn’t a problem for this guy.LikeLike
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@maz: Based on what we have heard here, only a few border guards at land crossings have made an issue about a U.S. birthplace. Twice in eight years I was politely advised to get a U.S. passport. I ignored the advice both times and never again had an issue in multiple crossings.
Interestingly, the first time was in 2004. That was the year the IRS rule about reporting to a U.S, Consulate came into effect. The guard, however, did not mention anything about taxes or IRS. I had been a Canadian citizen for 31 years then.LikeLike
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@Maz57, thanks for this. I think it will help Mariposa sleep a bit better at night. My last trip to the US was in Feb and I also experienced no problems, by air. Not even a comment about my birthplace, just a ‘have a nice trip’
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I became a Canadian citizen in 1978, at which time I was told by the U.S. Embassy that I had lost my U.S. citizenship. I told all my relatives in the States that I was becoming Canadian and would be losing my U.S. citizenship. Time passed and all was well. But recently I traveled to the U.S. and a customs officer, seeing my US. birthplace in my passport, told me that I was still considered a U.S. citizen and I should not come back without a U.S. passport. I found this quite upsetting after so many years. I still have a few relatives in the U.S. and would like to attend their funerals. I am looking into getting a CLN before things get worse. Have not attempted to go back to the U.S. since the incident.
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Harry, Welcome to the sandbox. The border guy was mistaken. Unfortunately it doesn’t pay to argue with them. He was mistaken because , when you became Canadian, you knew you would lose your US ness and it was your intent to do so. Therefore you haven’t been an American since. Don’t be bullied into applying for a passport.
Intent is all that is required to establish relinquishment. You will be able to get aCLN. It will take months to get an appointment and a few months after that to get it in the mail. You have NO tax obligations. All the info,you need is on this and the Isaac Brock websiteLikeLike
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@Harry: Welcome to Sandbox. we are nicer than US border guards.
I was told in 2004 at the border I should always enter the US as an American citizen. I debated it (friendly) with the border officer because, like you, I believed I was no longer a U.S. citizen because U.S. consulate told me I was “permanently and irrevocably” relinquishing U.S. citizenship in 1973.
I continued to enter the U.S. as a Canadian citizen with no further mention until 2011 when another border guard told me to get a US passport. This time, I nodded, smiled and went on my way. I did not get a U.S. passport. It was never mentioned again in numerous crossings. Since my mother`s death last year, I plan to never travel to the U.S. again.
Do NOT get caught in the trap of being bullied into getting a U.S. passport. If you do, you could get caught up in the nightmare Calgary411 went through.
Are you aware of the whole IRS and FATCA nightmare we are now living because of our place of birth and the betrayal of our own Canadian government?LikeLike
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Over the last few years, entered the US by air and twice by land with no questions about US birthplace on Canadian passport.
Crossing by land, got asked this time and explained parents Canadian, moved back when a kid and US citizenship lapsed when I turned 25 in Canada.
That provision of the INA was repealed effective October 10, 1978 — works for me.LikeLike
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Thanks GeorgeNotBush I think you are new here, Welcome to the Sandbox.
It sounds like you had a reasonable border guard–but it’s disturbing to know people have to know such details about the law just to travel.
Have you had any issues with your bank?LikeLike
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thanks for sharing your experience, GeorgeNotBush. While I agree with Lynne that it’s a shame we all have to know so much, it’s great to hear that there are still rationale human beings out there, even on the US border side
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Crossed into US by air having renounced 5 months ago. Haven’t received a CLN but consulate told,me to carry my receipt from consulate with me. No questions about US place of birth. Just how long a stay? Where to? Bringing anything in? Have a nice trip.
However, In last 3 years I had been warned twice about US passport required, I applied and got one. Although cumbersome it removed the bullying tone from conversations with customs staff.
I renounced in April and although anxious on this last trip, I had no issues.LikeLike
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US born in the mid 60’s, to Canadian parents. Returned to Canada at one year of age and been here since. Still cannot believe the absurdity of this…
Crossed into US at Vancouver international in the spring of 2014 on Canadian passport with US birth place. Polite agents, standard questions, “Have a good trip”.
Crossed into Washington State by car, summer 2015. Horrendously rude agent, had me shaking as he yelled and barked questions. (I guess being obnoxious flushes out terrorists)
I was already on edge (being a tax criminal) and this had me shaken and sweaty. I’m surprised I wasn’t taken away and executed. Through it all, no mention of the US birth place and daughter and I were tersely sent on our way. We had a fantastic time in Washington State and were reminded that the average American is the same as the average Canadian – everyone we encountered was fantastic, warm, welcoming and friendly.
**Keep up the good work.. I send small PayPal donations when I can.LikeLike
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@ FATCA-Oh Dear
Thank you for sharing your border crossing experiences with us. That last one was a doozie. It’s so true — people on both sides of the border are mostly salt of the earth. It’s too bad you sometimes have to pass through a cloud of mustard gas at the border to get to the good folks on the other side. BTW, thanks for sending a donation.LikeLike
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Thank you for donating. Some of those border guards are on a real power trip. I’m glad he didn’t make an issue of your U.S. place of birth. He must have thought general harassment was enough.
Welcome to Sandbox. You are among friends here.
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My other half (we’re not married, just common-law) was born in the US and moved to Canada at age 3. She just recently got her Canadian citizenship certificate and is now applying for her passport. We haven’t started the process of renunciation or even dealing with the IRS yet (she’s been unemployed for a few years anyway).
I’m just wondering if that’s something that may come up or if I shouldn’t be too worried and just keep moving forward? It’s on the to-do list of course, but if we want to travel the US in the next year on her Canadian passport should we be concerned at all?LikeLike
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Based on reports here and elsewhere, I do not think there is much risk to your partner crossing the border on a Canadian passport.
Most people have not encountered a problem. I was told twice in over 40 years of crossing that I should get a U.S. passport. The first time, I debated it with the Border Officer. The second time, I smiled,, nodded and went on my way. It was never mentioned again in several more crossings.
What are you referrimg to when you say “I’m just wondering if that’s something that may come up or if I shouldn’t be too worried…”
Are you asking about renunciation, the IRS, the Canadian passport, or something else?
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Hi Lynn,
I mean without taking care of her taxes (or lack thereof) with the IRS, if that may cause issues. I have no idea.
As mentioned, it’ll be taken care of when we start renunciation, just not yet.
Thanks 🙂LikeLike
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@Chris: If your wife recently became a Canadian citizen, she can relilnquish her U.S. citizenship by reporting to the US Consulate that she did so with the intent of elilnquishing American citizenship. She will need to pay the same $2350 US fee (about $3000 Canadian) but it another choice for her.
The Consulate should not ask anything about taxes other than advising you to report to IRS. Many people have filed several years of back returns after relinquishing or renouncing. Others do it before they renounce or rellinquish.
You may want to make an appointment now. The last I heard, the Toronto Consulate had a waiting time of 10 months for appontments. Other Consulates in Canada also have long waiting lists, but I think they are shorter than Toronto’s.
Good luck. Let us know how it goes or if you have any more questions.
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No, she’s been in Canada for 37 years (moved here when she was 3).
We didn’t know anything about taxes until quite recently, but we still want to travel.
She just “officially” got her Canadian citizenship, though.LikeLike
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I have a Canadian passport with a United States birthplace (Texas). Crossing into Chicago I was questioned very closely by U. S. customs and asked for my U.S. passport. I didn’t have one and still don’t. He let me through but warned me to get a U.S. Passport. I want to go to the states this summer to visit friends but I am now hesitant. What could happen either there or on the way back? And how could I prepare for it?
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Bart. It’s a crapshoot. Only a few border guys seem to get excited by this but you never know when you will run into one. We have crossed the border hundreds of times over 30 years without problems. So have many others. A few of us have been coerced into obtaining a passport.
Your course of action depends on the circumstances.
E.G. If questioned, you might say you relinquished when you became Canadian and ,at that time, a CLN was unheard of. Then there is the question of taxes…. If you apply for a US passport after many years your name will be given to the infernal revenue society and then nobody knows what would happen. It’s a tough call.LikeLike
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@Bart Several of us have been told to get a U.S. passport. Some complied but then got caught up in the IRS nightmare. I was told twice that I should get a U.S. passport. The first time (2004), I debated it with the friendly border guard. No one mentioned it again for seven years. (2011) That time, I merely nodded and went on my way.
It was never mentioned again in several crossings. My last crossing into the US was for my mother’s funeral in 2014. Since her death, I resolved never to travel to the U.S. again.
We have not had any reports of anyone being turned away or having anything bad happen for not having a U.S. passport. My personal feeling is a U.S. passport would cause more problems long term than not having a U.S. passport. But we don’t actually know what will happen over time.
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Bart. Clearly nothing will happen on the way back.
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Born in the US and renounced in 2014 with a CLN. Just got back from a Canada/USA trip and crossed into the US twice on my Australian passport, border guards on both occasions were very friendly and neither asked any questions with regards to me being born in US, US passports or showing them my CLN.
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Thanks for letting us know BJ. It’s good to hear that there were no problems at a Canada-US border with a passport that is neither Canadian nor American.
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What is CLN and how do I get one? I became a citizen in 1974. According to the laws in both countries I lost my US citizenship then since I swore an oath of allegiance to the Crown and to Canada and willingly and knowingly made this oath realizing it would result in my loss of US citizenship.. I moved to Canada in the fall on 1968. I voted in elections, joined a political party, taught at both the university level and at the high school level. I have received a merit award from the Prime Minister of Canada and from the Truth and Reconcilation Committee. When living in Alberta I was a member of the Metis Nation there. This was before the patriation of the BNA Act. I think people like me would be subject to slightly rules. How far back can these people (IRS) go. Does what they are trying to do go back to 1867? The great grandchildren of thea generation are still alive? Fredrich a devoted Canadian
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Fredrich. All the information you need is in the links to the right.
Briefly a CLN is a certificate of loss of (US) nationality.
You get one by making an appointment at aUS consulate to inform them that when you became Canadian you intended to give up US citizenship . That plus $3000 gets you a CLN . The process takes about a year.
Whether or not you need one is another question.- you probably don’t.LikeLike
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Frederich As DoD has advised, you may or may not want to get a Certificate of Loss of Nationality (CLN).
You are correct that in 1974, neither Canada
nor the U.S. allowed dual cutizenship. I became a Canadian citizen in 1973. Like you, it was with the very clear understanding that I was relinquishing American citizenship. In fact, my Canadian citizenship oath required me to renounce U.S. citizenship. (That was not required in 1974).
I personally will not go anywhere near an American Consukate. I don’t trust them based on past experiences. I refuse to give them my name, address or any other information about me to pass on to IRS.
Other people have made different decisions. Many have played the American game and applied for a CLN based on long agonrelinquishments.
Why do you want a CLN? Is it to give to your bank? Is it for crossing the border? Is it for peace of mind?
One very important point to understand is CRA does not and will not collect for IRS for any Canadian citizen. IRS does not have jurisdiction in Canadian courts.
FATCA makes everything a whole new ball game. If your financial institution asks where you were born, FATCA regulations and the IGA allow them to accept proof of non U.S. citizenship and a “reasonable explanation” for why you don’t have a CLN.
Do NOT–under any circumstances–get a U.S. passport for the purpose of entering the U.S. If you do that, you will be caught up in a never ending nightmare.LikeLike
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Some people are reporting they were detained and questioned on their way to Washington protests. It appears this couple do not have U.S. citizenship.
Other protesters were turned away at the border–including a dual Canadian-American citizen. He was trying to enter on his Canadian passport–but that does not seem to be the reason he was denied entry.
More Canadians in pussy hats are planning to join the Women’s March in Washington today. It will be interesting to see how many actually made it over the border.LikeLike
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So happy to have just discovered your website! You are providing a great service. I am a dual US/CAD citizen (US by birth). My current situation is a bit unusual in that I am currently in Australia, where both passports were stolen. I replaced my Canadian passport but have not replaced the US one yet, as I don’t have my birth certificate with me. I’d like to fly into Seattle but I’m wondering what will happen if I don’t have a US passport. Can I be refused entry? I’ve made it a habit up until now never to show US Customs my CAD passport, but now I will have to. I suppose everything is shared these days anyway and the US knows I am a dual citizen. But what’s the worst that could happen, not having a US passport?
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Hi North by Northwest
Welcome!
How unfortunate to have to deal with when not in either country! Question: How could you replace your CDN passport without a birth certificate?
It is U.S. law, for several years now, that a U.S. citizen is to enter the U.S. with a U.S. passport. We hear of lots of people being hassled about not using one but I am not aware of anyone outright denied entry. Of course, the worst is you could be denied. But that would be it. You certainly would not have any issue entering Canada.
I would not presume anything at this point. Unless you have renounced or something like that, there is nothing I am aware of that points to an exchange of passport info between U.S. Dept of State and CDN CIC. Even under their new system, unless I misunderstand, each country records and can share both entry and exit into either country. But if you use two different passports, I am not aware there is some sort of matching program………..
Good luck!LikeLike
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I also am unaware of anyone being refused entry. However, some airlines insist on a US passport for anyone born in USbefore they will permit them to board a flight to US.
UK’s Boris Johnson is the most high proflle person affected by that. He becamse aware of his unwanted U.S. citizenship severalyears ago when he was denied boarding a f;ight with his famiy on a trip to Mexico with connections in the US.
In another situation, Canada’s national airline, Air Canada insisted Stephen Kish give them his American passport to board a flight returning to Canada from the U.S. after he showed them his Canadian passport.
I have no idea how you might be affected ny all of this. It mat be there are no problems. It may be that your airline will refuse to allow you to board. If you do board, it may be that the US immigration folks will advise you that you should get a U.S. passport but they will allow you to enter. Or, they may refuse to allow you to enter.
I’m sorry we couldn’t give you a more definote answer. You may want to check with the American Embassy or Consulate in Australia but I suspect they will probably tell you that you must get an American passpport to travel to the U.S.
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The last time I crossed the US border, pre-OMG, post-FATCA, was probably early 2012 by car. I’ve never traveled to the US (or anywhere else) on anything other than a Canadian passport, and recall the border guard making mention of the US birthplace on my Canadian passport and asking me if I was a US citizen. I didn’t think much about that conversation until fall 2012 when I discovered I was a ‘US tax cheat’. At that point, I decided not to enter the USA for an indeterminate amount of time like many other US chattel. Sadly that also meant giving up the semi-annual girls’ Seneca weekends in Niagara. But after 5 years of missing out on all the fun, my BFF finally managed to convince me to go again, this past weekend. The border guard didn’t mention a thing about the US birthplace on my Canadian passport. And I had a great time as usual. Did I just get lucky? Will I get grilled next time as to why I don’t travel on a US passport? Who knows? But now that I’ve done it once, post-OMG, I’ll likely do it again.
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Maple Sandbox Historical Archive – 2012 to 2016
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A passionate baseball fan blog celebrating America's favorite pastime.
Maple Sandbox Historical Archive - 2012 to 2016 
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