There is a bit of anxiety concerning what happens at the US border once you have a CLN or once you’ve applied for one. Or for that matter, if you have a Canadian passport that shows a US birthplace, have no US passport and don’t want one, and haven’t yet decided whether a CLN is a good idea for you. If you’re one of any of these concerned people, this post and thread are for you.
My wife and I just returned from a week-long family visit to the US. We travelled by air, crossing US customs and immigration at pre-clearance at Pearson Airport in Toronto. My wife had applied for a relinquishment CLN several months earlier. She is still waiting for it, but in the meantime, the vice-consul told her at the interview that her CLN application file is now on the State Department website and is accessible to DHS staff at the border, if there is any question about why she is crossing the border on a Canadian passport that shows a US birthplace. (If you have a CLN or have applied for one, there is no way you can possibly have a US passport. If you had one before applying for the CLN, you are required to surrender it during the application process. Once you’ve sworn either the relinquishment or renunciation oath, you cannot be issued a US passport. So it would be absurd for a border guard to insist that you present a US passport at the border.)
Both of us have Canadian passports with US birthplaces. I have a CLN that was issued to me in 1976, based on my relinquishment upon becoming a Canadian in 1975. I would assume, in fact I would hope, that my CLN is flagged on the DOS and DHS computer systems; I’d be disappointed if it weren’t. But, I’m not going to ask a border guard or any other US official if it is. I don’t believe in kicking sleeping bears; such behaviour tends to be bad for the health.
Our border crossing last week was our first crossing since my wife applied for her CLN, so we were a little nervous, on her account (I always carry a photocopy of my CLN with my passport when I travel). Needlessly, as it turned out.
The pre-clearance area at Pearson wasn’t very busy; we were referred to an agent almost immediately after we arrived in the area. The agent examined both our passports, then scanned both of them into his computer. He examined the computer screen. He asked us how long we would be visiting the US, the purpose of the visit, and the usual questions about what we were bringing into the US (no tobacco, no alcohol) and the value of any gifts we’d be leaving behind in the US. He then entry-visa-stamped both our passports, initialed the visa stamps, and wished us a nice trip. No questions about citizenship, about why no US passport, about CLNs, nor any reference to the T word. He didn’t need to ask where we were staying; I had to give the hotel name, address and phone number to the airline when getting the boarding passes (which information I believe is now routinely shared between the US and Canada and probably many other countries), and also had to give that information on the US customs declaration form. No ogres awaited us as we got off the plane in the US. At no time during our week-long stay at the hotel were we ever contacted by any official of any level of US government. Our return to Canada was uneventful.
So, at least in our case, two Canadians born in the US, both of whom have relinquished their US citizenship, crossed the border together on their Canadian passports in mid-August 2012 without incident.
What if you have a Canadian passport that shows a US birthplace, don’t have a US passport and don’t want one because you don’t consider yourself a US citizen, and want to cross the US border? Stories here are mixed. My wife was in those shoes until a few months ago. She’s been across the US border for decades on her Canadian passport with US birthplace and has never once been “cautioned” or “warned” that she “has” to have a US passport to go back. But we have two friends who have been cautioned. Both our friends want to keep crossing the US border, because they both have adult children and now grandchildren living in the US, whom they want to visit. One has decided he wants to remain a dual US-Canada citizen, got a US passport, and spent thousands of dollars to become compliant with IRS demands (he hadn’t filed any US tax forms since becoming a Canadian). The other friend has absolutely no desire or intention ever to get a US passport, never has had one, also hasn’t filed US tax forms since becoming a Canadian more than 30 years ago, and has been “warned” when crossing by land (never, so far, during air crossings). Each time she has been warned, she smiled calmly and said essentially “I’m a Canadian, I’m not an American, this is my passport, and I want to cross on it.” She’s had her name entered at least once in the US border computers over this, has then been let in, and has subsequently gone back across without any further problems, at least not yet.
The lawyer my wife and I consulted in my wife’s case has a client who so far has been “warned” four times and still crosses; the warnings have delayed his border crossings, but he still gets in. As far as we can tell, so far these “warnings” seem to be random, at the whim of the particular border officer, and don’t (yet) have any serious consequences. But that could always change.
On the subject of visa stamps: since August 2011, my wife and I have crossed the US border five times on various family visits, twice by car (in Vermont) and three times by air (twice at Pearson and once clearing US immigration in Newark NJ). All three air crossings netted us US entry visa stamps on our passports (as a matter of what seems to be routine now at the airports; we didn’t ask for the visa stamps nor did we need to); none of the car crossings resulted in visa stamps (we presented our passports at both those crossings). Thanks to the air crossings, we now both can prove beyond any doubt that we’ve been admitted to the US carrying Canadian passports that show US birthplaces. Our feisty friend who keeps crossing in spite of warnings on land has also acquired a collection of US visa stamps in her Canadian passport, when she flies into the US.
Things can always change at the border. Lightning can strike at any time in the future. An incoming asteroid could destroy life or civilization as we know it on Earth. So far, however, the sky is not falling. We will enjoy what’s left of the summer, and we look forward to the maple leaves turning this Fall. We’ll be vigilant and prepared when we cross the border, but we aren’t losing any sleep over the issue of our passports and citizenships, at least not yet (if ever).
I invite other US-borns living in Canada (or elsewhere outside the US) who have Canadian (or other) passports showing a US birthplace, and who do not have a US passport, whether they have a CLN, have applied for one, or haven’t applied for one, to share their border-crossing experiences on this thread in the coming months, especially if anything disturbing happens. When you report your experience, please identify whether you have or have applied for a CLN (and if so, whether it was a renunciation or relinquishment), or not, and also indicate whether your experience was at an airport or at a land crossing. If you feel comfortable doing so, also indicate which airport or border crossing was involved.
I hope this thread can serve both to provide some comfort level (for as long as that’s appropriate) and, as needed, an early-warning system for things that may come, and perhaps some ammunition to use to try to nudge our government to take issue with the US over this if things start to get out of hand. (Remember Blaine Washington …)
PS I just edited the title of the thread, which originally read “Canadian passport” instead of “non-US passport.” Sorry for the Canada-centric tendencies; I am Canadian and that’s my perspective, but I recognize and respect that there are lots of US expats/former USPs (to use Johnnb’s point which I also have raised elsewhere) who live in countries other than Canada and who share some of these concerns. Not sure whether people entering the US from, for example, Switzerland (to pick a country which raises some hackles in parts of US officialdom these days) will get treated differently from people crossing from Canada. In theory everyone should be handled the same way, but we all know that there’s always a big gap between theory and practice. If you reply to this thread with border-crossing examples, please indicate from what country you were coming into the US if it wasn’t Canada and if you think that may have made a difference to your treatment.
Crossing the US Border on a non-US passport showing a US birthplace
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269 responses to “Crossing the US Border on a non-US passport showing a US birthplace”
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@Schubert, thank you for this. Reading about your experience and Blaze’s recent trip has made me calm down a bit. I have no intention of crossing the border (ever, if I can help it), but I do see problems at the border as an indication of things to come. So it’s fantastic to know your trip was uneventful.
And, you pose an interesting question, will former US citizens of other countries be treated the same as Canadians? I hope someone does come in and give us their experience.LikeLike
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@Schubert
Great idea for a thread. Crossing the border is definitely something to fear and keep tabs on for all of us in the situation of showing a U.S. birth place in our passports.
I crossed at a land crossing from B.C. in Washington state back in June. There was no problem at that time. I will be crossing again at Pearson in mid-October and will plan on posting my experience afterward. I presently have an appointment at the Vancouver consulate for September to apply for my CLN as a relinquisher. So if I go ahead with those plans, when I cross in October, I would at the very least be able to say that I had started the process, should I be asked.LikeLike
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Thanks Schubert for starting this thread.
I have been a Canadian citizen since 1973. I have always entered US as a Canadian citizen since then, despite my US place of birth.
In 2004, when I applied for my Nexus card, a very pleasant US Immigration Officer looked at my Canadian citizenship and US birth certificate and informed me I was still a US citizen. We had a discussion with her insisting I was and I was insisting I wasn’t. In the end, she agreed to issue my Nexus card as a Canadian because that was how I applied.
She, however, told me I should always enter US as a US citizen. She explained as a US citizen I had the right to return whenever I wanted, for as long as I wanted and I was not required to say how long I was staying or where I was going. I truly think she was trying to be helpful. She did not mention anything about being legally required to enter as a US citizen.
I came home and Googled it and discovered due to Supreme Court decisions. I could still be considered a US citizen. However, I also learned on that website (which seems to have been taken down since then) that if I entered US as a US citizen. they could refuse me access to Canadian officials if I needed them. So, I always entered as a Canadian citizen. I decided not to renew my Nexus card in 2009 because it seemed like too much of a bother.
Between 2004 and 2011, no one ever mentioned anything about entering as a US citizen. Then, last October (just two months after I learned about IRS issue), a border guard politely told me I should get a US passport. Not wanting to have the discussion again, I simply nodded and went on my way.
I was concerned I would have difficulty when I visited my mother in May and August, 2012. Both times, friendly border guards looked at and scanned my passport, looked at the computer, asked a couple of simple questions and I was finished.
I think there are far more reports of not having problems crossing than there are of problems. I do know a few have been bullied or intimidated into getting US passports and are now living with the IRS monster, but I think they are in the minority. I’m just grateful I’m not one of them.
Most of my crossings have been by land at Fort Erie Ontario into Buffalo New York, but I have occasionally flown into US, usually with screening at Pearson in Toronto.
I hope people will share their experiences so we can learn from the Good, the Bad and the Ugly. Like Schubert, I hope folks outside Canada will report on their experiences as well.LikeLike
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Congratulations on your new site, Blaze and outraged!!
Thanks for this excellent account, Schubert. I’m so glad it went well for you and your wife.
I, too, really think that border activity experiences need to be tracked and a good resource for all of us.
I know that I am paranoid about crossing and won’t do so with my son. Most readers know my story — my son was born in Canada, raised in Canada, never registered with the US, never lived in the US, never had any benefit from the US (nor do I see that he ever would as his “benefits” are much better in the country in which he was born – Canada as he has a developmental disability). The US Consulate denies any Parent/Guardian/Trustee the right to renounce “supposed” US citizenship of a family member with a developmental or any other perceptual disability such as dementia, etc. when we consider it in the best interest of that family member. I know that my son is not in compliance and that I am not able to easily, if at all, have his status changed.
At this point, it is my choice not to cross the US border again (with or without any of the rest of my family) unless some kind of emergency arises with one of my siblings that live in the US. The anticipated stress for me, after my one crossing incident which led me to get my first and only US passport, would be just too much. But, that is me.LikeLike
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i know this is totally irrelevant to this thread, but I just remembered a crossing into Quebec from Maine some years ago at a small crossing. I stopped at the border and waited for the Canadian border guard to come out. After a considerable wait, I went into the border crossing building only to find the one guard asleep. This was in the middle of the afternoon.
After gently waking the guard up he quickly let me through and presumably resumed his nap. I was going to Montreal to see Janis Joplin at the Montreal Forum, so you know how long ago this happened.
This was before I permanently moved to Canada, but may have unconsciously influenced my decision to immigrate to such a welcoming Country.LikeLike
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@Hazy2
That is just too funny. Oh, for the good old days!LikeLike
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@Calgary: Welcome!
@Hazy: Love It!LikeLike
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About ten years ago I visited Deer Island which is a small New Brunswick Island which connects to Campobello Island where Franklin Delano Roosevelt had a summer home. There is also a ferry to Eastport Maine from there.
I was amused to see that the customs house – which looked like a sentry box in front of Buckingham Palace was unstaffed ad had a sign on it which said “Toot your horn for service.” Better times. Better times.LikeLike
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@John: I read an article several months ago that about 50% of residents of Campobello Island were born in US because ferry service to the mainland of New Brunswick does not operate in the winter, meaning many women go by bridge to have their babies in Maine. I wonder if any of them ever got held up on the way to birth the next generation because they didn’t have a US passport.
The article was in both the Vancouver Sun and a New Brunswick paper, but I have not been able to access it for a few months. This issue was causing a lot of anxiety there. It would be great if we could get some of the Capobolo Island folks to join us in the sandbox.
On another note, anyone up for a game of chess? Here is an interesting article about others giving up their US passport rather than deal with IRS. http://theamericanclubs.com/wordpress/news-articles/articles-on-useful-topics/tax-game-of-chess-between-us-expatriates-and-the-irs-with-passports-and-dual-citizenships/
The author points how how difficult it will be for IRS to track people living outside US who do not renew US passport. Interestingly, she’s a tax lawyer specializing in expats.LikeLike
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That’s a shame that article is no longer available. It was excellent. There is a recent one, published on Canada Day, in the Portland (Maine) Free Press http://www.pressherald.com/news/Challenges-for-Campobello-Island-A-crossing-to-bear.html
“The island’s year-round population has already fallen by one-third since 9/11, in part because border complications make it more difficult to attract new year-round residents to replace those who move away or die.”
Quite ironic that US president FDR had his cottage there, so you could say it was for many years symbolic of the friendly relationship between the two countries, and now the US is causing hardship and fear for the island’s residents and contributing the island’s depopulation.LikeLike
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That was a terrible article. It’s all about people getting a second passport from a “tax haven” to “flee” US taxation. The impression one gets is not that people are quietly living their normal life in another country, but that we’re all former US residents who have left to evade taxes.
It is interesting to hear that she doesn’t think the IRS will find people who try to disappear with a second passport. It seems that she probably makes her living advising people who do just that.
But to refer to the second passports as being from “tax haven” countries, and then to mention Canada shortly thereafter is laughable,LikeLike
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No, I meant the article about US-born Canadians on Campobello Island last year was excellent.
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Campobello is in a really bad situation. In the winter when the ferry isn’t running their only connection with the mainland is a bridge crossing to Lubec, Maine. It is a 90 minute drive from Lubec to the nearest Canadian hospital in St. Stephen, New Brunswick. As a result many of the life long residents of Campobello are accidental USC.
The border crossings at each end of the bridge used to be more of a family affair for the locals but that has all changed now and there have been some incidents which caused friction. A silly one was a fellow who bought a bag of dog kibble in Maine, brought it home to Campobello only to be told by his wife it was the wrong stuff. He tried to return it but US customs wouldn’t let it into the country – even though he had bought it there just an hour before!
I don’t know if anyone from there has been involved in any of the discussions. They are a hard working lot of mostly fishers. There have been numerous articles in the local English language dailies down here but the issue seems to have disappeared.
One person who was in the press frequently was Russ Hunt, a teacher at St. Thomas University in Fredericton. I check his web page ( http://people.stu.ca/~hunt/ustaxinfo/ ) frequently but there hasn’t been anything new there since June. I suspect he finds it easier to defer to IBS. I will email him and invite him to the Maple Sandbox.LikeLike
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“When I have been in Canada, I have never heard a Canadian refer to an American as a “foreigner.” He is just an “American.” And, in the same way, in the United States, Canadians are not “foreigners,” they are “Canadians.” That simple little distinction illustrates to me better than anything else the relationship between our two countries.”
(Franklin D Roosevelt, 1936 in a visit to Quebec City)
The Franklin Delano Roosevelt Bridge connects Campobello Island (where Roosevelt spent summers) to Lubec Maine. That is the bridge many Canadian women take to have their babies in Maine. Little did those women know their children would become prey for the US.
What would FDR say about the IRS declaring Canadian banks where Canadians have banked for decades (some their entire lives) foreign financial institutions and our accounts offshore foreign financial accounts?LikeLike
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Just to inform everyone that my adult daughter with the disability and I crossed the Manitoba/N.Dakota border in August by car. I had my Canadian passport and a notarized copy of my CLN. I did not show the CLN, nor mention it. The border guard just asked “how is it that I have Houston as my place of birth?” I said, “I was born there,”, married a Canadian, and have lived in Canada almost 40 years. She did not question me on my daughter’s Canadain passport; I did have her expired U.S. passport, which I do not intend to renew. The border quard did not question me about my daughter having dual citizenship. The U.S. expired passport was never brought up in front of the guard.
My sister-in-law, a Canadian, was also in the car and she asked how we were related, and I said, “sister-in-law.” The guard then waved us on. The conversation was very quick, and there was no problem crossing into North Dakota.LikeLike
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There are some wealthy people born in the US who have become Canadian citizens over the years.
Rick George former CEO of Suncor Energy(Canada’s largest oil company)
http://www.leadershipcanada.ca/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=61&Itemid=59&lang=en
Based in Calgary, Rick was named Canada’s “Outstanding CEO of the Year” in 1999 after leading a remarkable business turnaround at Suncor, lifting the company from an underperformer to a leader in Canada’s energy industry. Since Rick took the company public in 1992, Suncor’s market capitalization has increased to more than $40 billion from less than $1 billion. Originally from Brush, Colorado, Rick spent 10 years with Sun Company both in the United States and the United Kingdom. During this time he held various positions in project planning, production evaluation, exploration and production, and in the international oil business. He moved from London, England to his current position as chief executive officer of Suncor Energy in 1991.
Mr. George holds a Bachelor of Science degree in engineering from Colorado State University, a law degree from the University of Houston Law School and is a graduate of the Harvard Business School Program for Management Development. He and his wife have three children. The entire family became Canadian citizens in 1996.
(My understanding is the Federal Register list from that year is too inaccurate determine at all what happened to his families US citizenship).
Karen Sheriff CEO of Bell Aliant Telephone in Halifax was also born in the US but at some unknown point became a Canadian citizen. It is not clear either if she was ever on the Federal Register.LikeLike
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@Cecliia, thanks for sharing your experience. It’s nice to hear first hand that crossings are still relatively easy at this point in time. It will be interesting to look back a year from now and do a comparison.
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I do wonder if these wealthy people, and business people, had advisors to ensure they knew they had to file taxes and fbars. Is it just the regular folk who didn’t know about it?
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FYI, John Williamson of the famous FBAR speech in the House of Commons is the MP that represents the area of Campobello.
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@Tim, this is a iittle bit off topic, but this seems like something you might have knowledge of. I just spent an hour googling place of birth for alberta politicians and our Canadian senators. I couldn’t find a single one born in the US (really!). However, I ran across Senator Hugh Segal, who published a book last year, The Right Balance: Canada’s Conservative Tradition. I haven’t read it, but in several excerpts I read, it appears he lists a set of priorities, starting with “1. “to build a Canada where the accident of one’s birth, disadvantaged or otherwise, does not limit one’s ability to succeed and contribute”
So, my question is this, what are the chances he might be a person we could engage positively on this issue? To me, what is happening to us is the exact opposite of that statement. He probably means disadvantaged to be someone born in poor circumstances, but…
I’m not very politically inclined, so I could be barking up a very wrong tree here, I just don’t know. Do you have any thoughts on it?LikeLike
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In terms of Alberta MLA’s and Canadian Senators. Offhand I can think of a couple.
Now former Alberta MLA and Cabinet Minister Cindy Ady
Now former Alberta MLA and Cabinet Minister Ted Morton
There is also a believe a current Alberta MLA born in the US but I cannot think of their name.
Senator Linda Frum’s mother was born in the US and her brother is a US Citizen(what would that make her??)LikeLike
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Then of course their is David Alward premier of New Brunswick but I am sure you have all heard about him
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thanks. I guess I was just looking too myopically, just at place of birth. gives me some ideas, anyway.
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The Canadian government is very clear: “Always use your Canadian passport if possible, especially when entering the country of your second citizenship.”
If that applies to Canadians who consider themselves dual citizens, it would certainly apply to Canadians who consider themselves Canadian only. http://www.voyage.gc.ca/publications/dual-citizenship_double-citoyennete-eng
Plus, this really important piece of information: “Using your Canadian passport may provide the basis under which Canada can provide you with consular assistance if you run into problems.”LikeLike
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That’s really important to remember. Of course, they go on to say the other country may not recognize your Cdn cit, and may refuse you consular assistance from Canada, but I cannot believe that situation would arise between the US and Canada given the close ties. Travelling on your Cdn passport may be your only protection, in fact.
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@Outraged, Tim: Dianne Ablonczy (maiden name Broadway) was born in 1949 in Peoria, Illinois. Her family moved to Alberta a year later. I recall reading something about a year ago that she had renounced US citizenship when she became a Canadian. I would think that was probably pre-1986, so I wonder if she knows about the Supreme Court decision. I also wonder if she was a minor when she did that.
Elizabeth May was born in 1954 in Hartford Connecticut. She moved with her family to Nova Scotia in 1972. Again, I seem to recall reading an article that she believed she had renounced US citizenship when she became a Canadian citizen (I think in 1978). She seemed as stunned as the rest of us that the US would still consider her a citizen when news hit last summer.
Ms. May has not responded to my letters or e-mails to her. I believe she has replied to someone (Perhaps Tiger?). However, Ms. May has written to the Prime Minister: http://elizabethmaymp.ca/parliament/letters/2011/09/12/letter-to-the-prime-minister-regarding-irs-and-foreign-tax-laws/
In her letter, Ms. May says Canadian citizenship does not require renunciation of other citizenship. She is clear, however, that she would have done this to be fully engaged in life in Canada. She does not seem to realize the US actually now requires renunciation to be before a US Consular official to be recognized by US.
I wonder if either of them or David Alward have ever been told they should get US passports. Again, I remember reading David Alward filed returns with IRS because of his need to travel regularly to US–even though he became a Canadian citizen decades ago.LikeLike
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I wonder if Elizabeth May ever got a decent response? I was impressed by the tone and most of the content of her letter, and you would think the that the PM would take it seriously.
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@Blaze
Yes, it was me that Elizabeth May responded to. The letter is dated March 12th. In the letter, she states “As a Canadian citizen born in the US, I can assure you that I share your concerns and am dedicated to defending the equality rights of all affected citizens.”
She goes on in the letter to state that she has sent correspondence to the Prime Minister and that she has met with David Jacobson. In her own handwritting at the end of the letter she says: “I think that the US is not interested in coming after average citizens – but we need to remove the threat”.
Of course, removing the threat is what we all wish would occur.
She does mention in the letter to keep her posted through her constituency office of ‘any changes in your situation’.
Her constituency office is:
1 – 9711 Fourth Street
Sidney, BC V8L 2Y8LikeLike
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Some relevant links for Elizabeth May and Denise Savoie, another friend of US persons in Canada:
http://elizabethmaymp.ca/parliament/letters/2011/09/12/letter-to-the-prime-minister-regarding-irs-and-foreign-tax-laws/http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2012/08/23/pol-savoie-resigns-victoria.html
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/04/23/letter-from-mp-denise-savoie-to-president-obama-4-2/ (links to Denise Savoie letter to President Obama no longer work.)LikeLike
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According to Phil Hodgen’s blog, David Alward is (or was as of October, 2011) in OVDI. hodgen.com/new-brunswick-premier-is-in-the-ovdi/cc
If true, I hope Mr. Alward opted out before things proceeded too far. If it is accurate, I don’t think Mr. Alward received very good legal or accounting advice. I suspect he became a Canadian citizen prior to 1986.
Next, will IRS want access to all of New Brunswick’s financial information because Mr. Alward as the Premier has signing authority?
Phil did an interesting summary of comments by some Canadian politicians, including Alward, who said he believes federal Finance Minister Jim Flaherty is doing the best he can to fight the U.S. rules.
“Ottawa is fully engaged in this,” Alward said.
Oh, dear. ”Best he can.” ”Fully engaged.” ”We’re trying to work through a process.”
More recently,(as Tiger has said many times), Ottawa’s silence has been deafening. They need to follow Phil Hodgen’s advice:
“Please, Villagers of Ottawa. Do not be polite when marching on Castle Frankenstein.”
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I am delighted and relieved to hear that Elizabeth May has written to Harper about FATCA and to read her excellent letter. Thanks for finding and posting this, Blaze. AFAIK May is the only party leader who has written to the PM about this.
Also, if you’ve been following CBC News website lately, you likely have heard the very sad news (both for us and for her constituents) that Denise Savoie is resigning her seat in Parliament, effective August 31, for health reasons. She has been a bastion of sanity and support for us on this issue, and I gather from various blogs on the news story that she is respected and liked by her constituents for whom she has done a lot. Canada is losing a great MP, but I hope her health rebounds from the stresses of traveling between BC and Ottawa frequently. Let’s hope that in the eventual by-election her constituents return another MP who is as stalwart an advocate for justice in our common cause against the US and the IRS, as Savoie has been.LikeLike
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@Schubert, Others: Like you, I am not aware of any other party leaders writing to the Prime Minister about IRS. .
However, the BC NDP members did write an open letter to Minister of Finance and Minister of Foreign Affairs. Here it is: http://www.libbydavies.ca/parliament/openletter/2011/10/26/letter-ministers-flaherty-and-baird-urging-them-defend-canadian-us#.UDkXbpGCXZ8
Somewhere, I have a copy of a letter which NDP CIC Critic (I think!) Don Davies received from Mr. Flaherty. I will try to find it, scan it and post it.
I wrote to Mr. Davies. Although his riding is 3000 miles from me, he phoned me personally and left a message (I was not home at the time) expressing his views about Canadians, IRS and FATCA.
My own Conservative MP sent me a letter calling me a dual citizen and enclosing a fact sheet about my obligations to IRS to file FBARs.
Now that the NDP has had a new leader for a while, it would be helpful if Thomas Mulcair would write to the PM.LikeLike
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Getting back to the original question…
I’ve entered the US 4 times since getting my CLN and German passport.
My German passport has the name of the town I was born in, but not the state or country as “place of birth”. Probably one needs to be familiar with the German language to realize that I can’t possibly have been born in Germany. (The town name is French.)
The first time I flew to the US on my spanking new passport, the first security check person in Germany before boarding the airplane (the person who asks who packed your bags etc.) asked me if I was American and wanted to inform me that I had use my American passport entering the US. So I waved my photocopy of my CLN at her and she was satisfied.
Since then, no one has asked. It’s just been the fingerprints and eye scans at passport control upon entry.
I’ve found that if you fly with an American carrier, most of the passengers on the plane are American. That means the lines at passport control for us “furriners” are shorter than for the Americans. (Unless you arrive just after a plane from China, which happened last time.)LikeLike
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@cecilia @calgary411 and others with USP children having disabilities and not being competent to renounce, hence facing double taxation (or single taxation by the US on benefits untaxable in the country of residence) on their “unearned” benefits (no relief is granted by the FEIE*** for such income, as far as I know):
You might be interested to know about the International Social Service (http://www.iss-ssi.org/2009/index.php?id=2), based in Geneva, that has branches around the world, including Canada: http://www.iss-ssi.org/2009/index.php?id=50. They deal with problems children have due to international migration.
Although they don’t seem to mention these sort of cases on their website, they would probably be interested as there must be a large number of such cases, given the estimated 5-7 million USC’s living outside of the homeland.
At the very least, the ISS might a contact point for people with the same problem at which statistics could be assembled. Perhaps they could put a section on their website that we suggest everyone links to (from Maple, ACA, IBS, Hodgen, Townsend, Mopsick, AARO.org and other sites and blogs) requesting people to share their stories about this problem (in much the same way that ACA collects testimony about banking and tax issues, to wit: http://americansabroad.org/issues/taxation/share-your-banking-or-tax-story/)
Helping people to organize around this issue would ultimately help all USPs living in Canada and abroad as it would shed light on what seems to me to be one of the very unfair and unjust (even abusive) side-effects of the US citizenship-based taxation regime.
Up to you to write them and see what you can arrange. Perhaps if you can find others with the same predicament then you can all write them at the same time so that the significance of the issue is recognized.
*** Foreign Earned Income Exclusion (approx USD 90k per annum).LikeLike
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@Jefferson,
I want to thank you for finding this additional resource. International Social Security (ISS) should be made aware of the reality we face with our children with developmental disabilities (as well as for families with family members with other disabilities rendering them lack of mental incapacity) regarding attempts to renounce US citizenship on behalf of a family member not able to do so him or herself.
I will forward my story and the second-hand knowledge I have of two other families having approached the US Consulate in Calgary to be told they did not have the right to renounce US citizenship for a family member, as Parent, Guardian or Trustee.
I feel there will be countless families who will face the same when they know what they face and believe that renunication of US citizenship is in the best interest of their family member.
Thanks for all you find and do, Jefferson!LikeLike
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@Sally: Thanks for sharing that information.
It’s interesting it was an airline employee and not a US Immigration official who raised the issue about the US place of birth. Do you think she would have refused you the right to board if you hadn’t had your CLN? That is what happened to Boris Johnson, Mayor of London.
You mentioned “just the fingerprints and eye scans.” at passport control on arrival. Have I missed something? Is fingerprinting on arrival from abroad at a US airport now required? Is it only required for people on non-US passports or for US citizens as well?
@Jefferson: I hope Calgary and Cecelia may find that information helpful. Great new source.
@Schubert: Do you think we should change the title to Entering the US on…. I wonder if Crossing the US Border may cause people to think we are only speaking about the border between Canada and US. I hope if there are others like Sally with experiences from other countries, they will add them here.LikeLike
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I think the airline employee may have been trying to “help me out” so I don’t get in trouble with US immigration. Being fluent in German, she probably knew that my birthplace couldn’t be a German town.
Fingerprints and eye scans have been the routine for all non-US citizens that do not have green cards entering the US at airports for some time now. This supposedly keeps the terrorists out. This was implemented fairly soon after 911, as soon as they could get the equipment installed at all the airports.
I do not understand why US citizens don’t need the fingerprints and eye scans…except maybe citizens might object to being treated as crooks and vote the perpetrators out of office.
And now citizens of “visa waiver countries” need to pay for a “non-visa visa” too. They say its not a visa, but you have to apply in advance, they have to approve it and you have to pay $14 for it. Sounds like a visa and a fee to me. $4 of that is supposedly to pay for the border guards checking you and the expense of having signage etc that you can understand. Essentially to make the immigration process a “nicer experience”. The other $10 is for advertising to induce you to want to go to the US. This additional $10 fee was thought up by some tourism organization, so their members don’t have to pay for the advertisements themselves. But it was passed by Congress.
The visa that supposedly isn’t really a visa means that you must have a credit card and you must give this info to the US government.LikeLike
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About a year ago, soon after learning about the possibility of relinquishment, my wife and I consulted an immigration lawyer. He repeatedly asked us how did we respond at the border when asked what our citizenship was. Neither one of us
recalled ever being asked about our citizenship. The lawyer just won’t believe that we weren’t asked.
When crossing we usually traveled by car and were only asked the standard where are you going, how long will you be staying, were we bringing any gifts or food items ( no questions about dog kibble!) and were whisked through. Perhaps travelling in a car with Canadian plates helped. Our last trip was by bus south to New York from Montreal We did present our Canadian citizenship cards. Again , no problem, although the fact that we were probably the only non Haitians on the bus may have helped.
We haven’t crossed the border since passports were required. Others with US birth places have told me that they were told to get US passports and then were allowed to continue on.LikeLike
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I’ve crossed from Canada into the US and back many times and have always been politely treated and waved through. Only once was I questioned about my place of birth (NY) but I simply explained that I have lived in Canada since 1965 and have been a Canadian citizen since 1971. “Have a good trip!”
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@blaze as to comment back to Sally: I don’t think an airline employee could deny boarding to someone who has a valid foreign passport, visa and/or visa waiver eligibility for the US if that person insists that they are no longer a USP. US birthplace is not a proof of USC status, even though many people around the world know that people born in the US get US nationality (which is not the case in many other countries). Still, I wouldn’t want to land in the US and let the CBP do the “heabeus grabbus” on me for having USP status and no green card or US passport on my person.
I had some problems years ago going the other way. You see, in many European countries, USC’s don’t get their passport stamped: “why don’t you have a return ticket”… “This is my return ticket, I live in Switzerland”…”But you have a brand new passport with absolutely no stamps or visas in it”. The US passport I had at the time was issued in Bern, Switzerland, so I told the airline employee that, and that they had to let me catch my flight to the major US airport I was changing planes at, or else I would sue them, as a US citizen who was not being allowed to travel freely in the US. (This was before 9-11, Patriot Act, and the insidious and opaque “No Fly List” policies.). My coup de geuele worked. “Well, I guess we can’t stop you from taking the flight from here to [major US airport], but you might be refused boarding on the European flight”…. “Fine, I will take care of that when I land at the [major US airport]”. All I had to do when arriving at the major US airport was go straight to the Lufthansa desk on the concourse where my flight was supposed to leave from, ask for my boarding pass, show them my baggage claim ticket and ask them to check that my baggage was checked through to Switzerland because the airline employee at the smaller airport had some issue with checking my baggage through. Fortunately, I had a very long connection there so there was enough time, and the conversation I had with Lufthansa there was with a German lady and we spoke High German, and she didn’t question one minute what I was up to. “Ich wohne seit 5 Jahren in der Schweiz”. That was enough for them, no haggling over whether I had Swiss papers, (my German had probably been corrupted by French and Swiss German by then, so that must have made things clear) they were even sorry that the partner airline with which I had booked the connecting ticket via the same reservation number had not checked the bag through, they thanked me for stopping by the desk early to get everything sorted out. They could see that I had purchased the ticket from Lufthansa office in Switzerland and they wanted to fulfill what I had paid for. They got on the phone and got my baggage pulled off of the domestic carrousel and rerouted. I have not yet lost a bag or even had one delayed with Lufthansa. Good airline, good and reliable service, they don’t dote on you, if they miss something or you need something you just raise your hand and ask them for what you want politely and you get it if it is part of the deal.LikeLike
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@Blaze. I like your suggestion of changing the title of this thread to “Entering the US…” rather than “Crossing the US border…” for the reasons you suggest (the latter implies land crossing or maybe air crossing from Canada or Mexico, “entering” is more generic and less likely to be interpreted as Canada- or Mexico-centric.
However I tried to make the edit from my Profile and it wouldn’t “take.” Also, I’m a little worried that if someone has “subscribed” to be notified by mail of further comments to this thread, whether that “subscription” gets messed up or dropped if we change the thread header. I’m not enough of a techhie to be able to answer that question, but I’m enough of a techhie to realize it might be a problem and to worry about it.
So over to you, Outraged or whoever else on this thread knows more than I do about how WordPress would handle this … I have no problem with the header change in principle, only I might in practice if it causes problems for “subscribers” to the current thread and header …LikeLike
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@myself and everyone
Oops spoke too soon, I guess there’s a time lag on edits, now the title is incorporating the change I tried to make (successfully as it now turns out).
Apologies to anyone who subscribed to the thread under the previous title, if this messes up your subscription …LikeLike
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It’s really interesting to see how the perception really changes depending on the country. My aunt left for Canada over 20 years ago and my family does not really perceive her move as being to another country (go figure). Canada is simply “not so foreign” to Americans and perhaps Canadians feel the same way? But when I moved to France I had the impression that my move filled my family with a combination of excitement (how exotic!) and fear (the French are not at all like us, you know. They actually have Communists there!) Yes, and some of them are friends of mine. 🙂
I have had questions at the border about what I’m doing in France. The easiest answer has always been, “I married a Frenchman” and I prefer it because it usually stops the questioning cold. It got a bit harder to use when I started traveling around the world on business and I have a lot of cool stamps and visas in my passport. In Canada, US and UK they wanted an explanation and I had to give more info about the company I worked for and what I did. I’ve never been asked about taxes.LikeLike
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@Schubert, when the title of the post changed, the ‘slug’ didn’t. That’s the URL that’s automatically created with the post. It still says ‘canadian’ rather than ‘non-us’. That means that anyone following your post or the comments is fine.
I did a google on ‘crossing the us border on a non-us passport’, and it came up with your post. IF you look at the url it displays, it does show the ‘canadian’. I’m not sure it’s necesary to change the slug since people will find the post without it. If you would like to change the slug, we’ll have to do a redirect from the old to the new. Just let me know your preference on this, either here or by email.LikeLike
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@OutragedCanadian Thanks for checking into this. “If it isn’t broken, don’t fix it” has always been my motto, so if the “slug” is working, let’s leave it alone. “Slug,” eh? Gotta love some of the words the tech folks come up with …
@Victoria. My US relatives certainly don’t think of Canada as very foreign when they visit, except when we get into political discussions. The fact that we have the Queen, that I swore an oath of allegiance to her and her heirs and successors, and that I am a member of a party that some in Canada and everyone in the US would describe as “socialist” (the NDP) and am quite proud and even aggressive about that, does startle them though. As for how Canadians think about the US, I can’t speak for anyone other than myself, but I find the US to be much more foreign to me than Switzerland or Germany, in spite of the obvious linguistic differences, though I find Greece is certainly more foreign and not just because of the alphabet and language (and great beaches). I’ve never been to France except in transit via CDG so I can’t really make a comparison there.
The US has changed so much since I left in 1969, and has become so horribly polarized politically, even more than in the McCarthy era in the 50s which I remember quite well, that I feel far less comfortable having any conversation with anyone in the US outside my immediate family on most topics, and even with them there are topics I avoid (like, is the prison in Guantanamo still functioning and why is that, not to mention remote-control and even automated drone strikes against people in foreign countries, what ever happened to the concept of separation of church from state never mind politics, etc.). I find the US far more foreign to me than I find two of the three European countries in which I’ve traveled fairly extensively. I used to travel extensively in the UK but haven’t recently, but back in the 1980s I found the UK more comfortable and familar than the US and actually more like Canada than the US, especially once one gets past accent and idiom and gets into political or even quasi-political discussions about health care, the important role of (democratic) government in society and the economy, parliamentary versus presidential style of government, etc.
I recently read cover-to-cover for the first time a good translation of Alexis de Toqueville’s “Democracy in America” and was struck by how prescient he was in identifying dangerous trends inherent in the US political system, and how little certain things have changed there in 170 years. Ditto many parts of Charles Dickens’ “American Notes.” I think both writers would be apalled at what the US is today, if they came back to it now. Not sure how they’d react respectively to modern France and UK, but I think more favourably than to modern US.
On the subject of Communists: in my riding of Ottawa Centre, the Communist Party of Canada has run a candidate in every federal election I can remember. In a couple of elections there was even a candidate for the Marxist-Leninist Party of Canada (don’t ask me what the difference is, I haven’t a clue). The Communists have always finished dead last in the election and have always lost their election deposit; they come lower in the totals even than the Natural Law Party (which advocates solving public policy issues by “yogic flying” and meditation). There are usually 100 or so voters in the riding (out of maybe 60,000 or more) who vote for them. I’m quite happy to see them on the ballot in a democratic election and get democratically clobbered every time by the voters who exercise their own free choices, than see the US approach where I believe they are banned from ballots (or would probably have their party headquarters fire-bombed or machine-gunned or something). I don’t like our Quebec separatist parties and would be profoundly saddened and upset if Quebec were to separate, but I like that they’re a legal party and even have seats in the federal parliament, something the US Congress would probably never permit. But that isn’t a topic I feel I can discuss with my family never mind other Americans; most Americans are so hopelessly brainwashed into believing they are the only truly, or the most democratic, nation on earth in spite of all kinds of glaring examples to the contrary.LikeLike
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One thing I have always thought is many Americans have this idea of Canada as being a very rural country when in fact the major urban areas especially Toronto are extremely dense and congested. I always like the story one of my American acquintances parents who hate driving in “big cities” and live in Northern Vermont that were travelling back from Indiana and decided it “might” be nice to cut through back through Canada. While there many interesting tourist attraction along Highway 401 from Windsor to Montreal if you don’t like the type of big city traffic jams common in NYC, LA, or Chicago driving Highway 401 through Toronto is definately not for you. I think given the way the US Rand McNally Road Atlas de-emphasizes the scale of the Greater Toronto Area they definately found themselves in a rude awakening. (I myself don’t particular like heavy traffic myself and try avoid 401 if I can which typically is less often than more).
A less well known view of Canada(if you aren’t Canadian):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_Highway_401
While there is not a similar defintion of Metropolitan Area in the US and Canada I believe that Greater Toronto is only eclipsed in size by Chicago, Los Angeles, and New York City. Additionally if Ontario was a state its population would only be exceeded by New York, California, Texas, and Florida.LikeLike
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@schubert, Thank you for saying what I’ve been thinking for the past few years. I left at a later date (1989) but when I go back to visit the US, I don’t recognize the place anymore. Hard to put my finger on what changed but I’ll give it a try.
Fear: I didn’t grown up in fear and yet I was a young adult during the end of the Cold War. We were concerned, yes, but not to the level of paranoia I see now.
Economic Insecurity: Every time I go back I feel like people are poorer. Visibly so. Especially the middle class. Everyone I know except for my parents is in debt up to their eyeballs. On paper they make good money but things are tight and everyone is afraid of losing their jobs. All the homeowners I know have seen their house values plunge and that was the only savings these folks had.
Political Polarization: Someone already mentioned this. All I can say is that I concur 100%. People are prickly and quick to attack if they think you are dissing the US or you have an opinion that they disagree with. Zero sense of humor and zero capacity to discuss things rationally.
General Culture: Along with this is something I find terribly frightening and that is a kind of ignorance I just don’t see in other places. Americans aren’t dumb but they are incredibly ill-informed and lack that kind of “culture générale” that is the basis of rational civil argument. What you hear all too often is pure emotion and zero facts. And I’m talking about basic stuff like what “socialism” is or where Venezuela is located on a map. Often they don’t even know what they don’t know. And I’m not talking about folks who come from terrible inner city schools – I’m seeing this in people who went to “good” schools in nice suburbs.
And finally what I see is something that just breaks my heart – Americans are starting to have a mean streak. On half of the country despises the other. Everyone is hurting but their lives have become so narrow that they have no energy for empathy. And they go after each other, their fellow citizens, in ways that are terrible to see. If those people over there would just behave better/think my way/go home then my country will be alright. Some essential glue that held this place together is getting very thin. No sense of solidarity or national purpose. This is a nation at war with itself and people are hunkering down and trying to protect their own little piece of it and to hell with everyone else. Obama couldn’t fix it and I doubt Romney will do better. The social contract is going, going, almost gone. And God help us if the US implodes.
My .02.LikeLike
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wow Victoria, what a well-worded and succinct summary of what is wrong with the US. I was going to suggest you try to get it published somewhere in the US media, but then a) it’s highly unlikely they’d accept it and b) it’s even more unlikely that a significant number of Americans would read it and take it to heart and think about what it means and what, if anything, they can do to try to set their country and society back on the path they all used to aspire to. There still are some thoughtful Americans and one or two sane and thoughtful media outlets down there, but they’re mostly hunkered down and fearful of everyone else right now. I keep wondering whether it was like this before the outbreak of the US Civil War …
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Hi schubert, Thanks. Yeah, I don’t think they don’t want to hear it and the moment they hear that I live in France I’d lose all credibility and they’d slap me around from the West to the East Coast before kicking me over the border. Hopefully (please God) that would be the Canadian border. 🙂
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@Schubert: My wife and I share a lot with you. We knew we were Canadians when we visited family in the US and then came home. It was such a relief to see the Maple Leaf flying over the border crossing. We really felt that we were coming home when we re-entered Canada.
Our families have no idea. They think of Canada as an extra state to the north and we never discuss politics with them. When they mentioned once about freedom being the defining feature of the US we mentioned that some of our friends were vacationing in Cuba and that USC couldn’t do that the temperature in the room dropped considerably. Everyone avoids politics since then. If they knew that we belonged to a socialist party they would be shocked even though they have to know we are to the left of anyone they meet at home.
Our visits now are short. We catch up on family matters but have so little else in common. We have been in Canada now for more than 2/3 of our lives. We have almost everything in common with Canadians so conversations which assume background are easy here and uncomfortable in the US.
The only time we feel at all like ex-pats here is every four years when friends seek us out to ask yet again to explain the electoral college to them!
One thing we would change if we could is the wording of O Canada. In a nation of immigrants it is strange to say “…Our home and native land.”
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I always breathe a sigh of relief when I cross under the Canadian flag at the top of the Peace Bridge on my return home to Canada. Despite the name of the bridge I always take, I never feel peaceful when I’m in US.
I think many Americans think of Canadians as Americans with “socialized” health care (some say it with envy, others with a sneer) and same-sex marriage.
On the Cuban issue, my elderly mother for years snuck Cuban cigars back across the border for my niece’s husband, who was a fighter pilot in US Navy.
They think of us like the lovable black sheep of the family–sort of like how the Royal Family probably thinks of Prince Harry these days.
I remember reading an article a few years ago that said American values are now more in sync with those of Great Britain, while Canadian values are more in sync with those of continental Europe. I personally found that surprising.
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Like all of you, I have been Canadian longer than I was American, having first come to Canada 51 years ago. The thought of returning to live there is a bit like watching a horror movie.
I have four siblings living in various parts of the U.S. One sister, whose family has always worked in the federal government system (a brother-in-law holding very senior positions in the Bush administration), is ultra conservative. Another sister, now retired to South Carolina, says she and her husband are probably the only democrats in the whole state. When the two of them are in the same room, I feel like I must be a peacemaker. The republican sister won’t allow CNN on in her home; the other sister does not allow Fox news on in her home. It does not happen often that we are all together as a family, but when it does occur, I thank God that I left and settled here in Canada. I am not sure they think of me as the ‘black sheep’, but I suspect they feel sorry for me. You know, the bane of high income taxes, universal health care, the GST. How ever do I stand it!!!
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As I am certain many of you are aware, USPs are not the only people whose lives are being severely affected by US extraterritorial taxation and reporting policies and the aggressiveness of the IRS / DoJ, etc.
Bank employees are also losing their jobs, having trouble getting new jobs, and afraid about their reputation or even fearful of travelling outside of Switzerland because their employers have transmitted their names and documents to US authorities, and they often don’t even know exactly what has been transmitted.
In accordance with discussions I had with various participants here at Maple about the need to see what the foreign press is covering, I would like to share with you here a cross-post from IBS, containing a partial transcript of two interviews which appeared on Swiss francophone TV last night. At the bottom of the post there is also a pingback to discussions about stories regarding the detention of children of Swiss bankers who were visiting family in the US, and other articles (unfortunately in German and not yet translated) about other categories of people (notaries public, CPAs, etc) being advised not to travel.
Interviews on Swiss TV: Bank employees upset about their names being disclosed to the US.
I am not going to copy the transcripts here (4 pages). Perhaps the moderators could open a new thread?
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@Jefferson: It seems Switzerland has been the hardest hit. It’s like Switzerland and the Swiss have become the easiest line of attack for US.
United States of Arrogance is a country that seems to always need to be at war or at odds with someone. They’re like the classic bully in the schoolyard playground. They always have to find someone smaller than themselves to beat up.
Right now, it’s the Swiss which I find totally bizarre. The US is probably the greatest tax haven in the world. US banks are doing exactly what the Americans are trying to jail Swiss bankers for.
How much lower can the US go than detaining Swiss kids visiting grandparents in US? Unfortunately, I fear we haven’t yet seen how low US can go.
As stressful as this may be for us in Canada, I can’t even imagine being considered a US person in Switzerland or many other countries right now.
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A quick update about our border crossing, in light of wonderful news in this afternoon’s delivery from Canada Post.
My wife received her CLN by regular mail today from the US consulate in Toronto. She had applied for a relinquishment CLN there 4.5 months ago. The consulate took one week for the Consul (presumably the vice-consul’s boss) to approve her CLN. Washington took three months for final approval. Then it took five weeks and a couple of days for State in Washington to send the approved CLN to Toronto via Tortoise Express or God knows what other slow-poke. Canada Post took three business days to get it to us in Ottawa from Toronto, which isn’t great but is a model of efficiency compared with the State Department. Anyway, it’s here, back-dated to her Canadian citizenship of 1977, and she’s “free at last, free at last, thank God almighty I’m free at last.”
I just realized that when we crossed the US border as mentioned at the beginning of this post, her CLN had unbeknownst to us been approved in Washinton four weeks earlier. Possibly that information was on the DHS computer at pre-clearance in Pearson and possibly the border guard knew we both have CLNs, from his computer. Or not, depending on how inefficient State’s IT people are at inputting data into the computer network.
We plan a ‘slap-up’ meal at a neighbourhood restaurant to celebrate. And God Help any banker who tries to out either of us to IRS under FATCA now; “go ahead, make my lawyer’s day,” to paraphrase Clint Eastwood.
I will continue to monitor and occasionally participate in this website from time to time, in solidarity and sympathy with my fellow former and present US persons, but I hope you understand that after twelve months of Hell, my wife and I both want to regain our lives and sanity so I’m not going to be spending as much computer time on this issue as I have been. I am subscribing to this thread though and will see any replies and respond if or when I think it constructive and helpful to do so.
Good luck to you all and God Bless You Every One.
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@Schubert, thanks for updating us and sincere congratulations to both you and your wife for escaping IRS hell. I’m green with envy, but I totally understand how you might want to actually forget about all this and just live the lives you’ve worked toward all these years. It would be nice to hear from you now and again, you could do a show and tell on what we can all look forward to, once this monkey’s off our backs!
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Our sincere congratulations to your wife on this ordeal finally being over. I know our relief was palpable the day ours arrived.
Let’s hope that the logjam in Toronto is finally breaking up.LikeLike
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Congratulations, schubert! That is wonderful news. Time for a pause and a chance to get back to real life without all that nonsense hanging over your heads like the sword of Damocles. Good luck to you. I’ll be watching the Quebec elections as well. My daughter is, as I write this, on a plane from Seattle to Montreal and my husband just left the house 15 minutes ago for his flight from Paris to Montreal. 🙂
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@schubert; I am very happy for you and your wife. And also glad that it seems that Toronto seems to be moving faster now. Thank you for all your posts and updates. I got used to seeing various people in this and the IBS community, and will miss seeing you as one of the ‘regulars’ here and there. Enjoy your freedom, and your celebratory dinner!
best wishes,
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@Schubert: “Let freedom reign. The sun never set on so glorious a human achievement.”
(Nelson Mandela)
Congratulations.
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I’m so happy to hear this!!!!! I’m always happy when someone reports receiving their CLN. But this is Toronto … so I’m double-happy! After the Calgary, then Halifax, then Montréal CLNs arrived over a period of weeks in June-July, nothing happened in Canada for over a month. Just this week, I was wondering when they’ll get to Toronto or if the train had stalled. I think I’m in the same batch as Mrs. S. Great news!
You’ve been very supportive to me, and all of us, in this convoluted mess, so it’s a good time to say thanks. I’m really happy to hear that your lives are now in order (officially and irrevocably). Have a great celebration! Have a big bottle of wine! I think I may have a glass myself this evening 🙂
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Thanks all. I am genuinely touched by your sentiments, as is my wife.
It’s au revoir, if not a bientot. No doubt I’ll be checking in from time to time, just not as often.
Now if we can just get ourselves past the Quebec election … always something to worry about politically it seems, but also necessary to smell the coffee and the roses. I’m looking forward to getting back into volunteer work with my photo club, which I’ve been neglecting the past year, not to mention the backlog of great photos I got in June 2011 in Switzerland. (Great photo, Blaze!)
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Congratulations Schubert and to your wife. Thank you, too, for all of your excellent advice. You have been one of the most helpful individuals to me since I first read your posts back at Expat Forum. This is an especially exciting development for me since I relinquished at Toronto in December. Hopefully mine is on the way, too. Must feel great to have the monkey off your back!
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@Quincy,
You state you relinquished in Toronto in December, 2011. It sounds like Schubert’s wife, relinquished 4 1/2 months ago. Any idea why some Toronto relinquishments get processed faster than others?
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It seems that Dept of State has divided the world into several zones for CLNs, and that in all zones, except Canada, the standard delivery time for a CLN is one to two months.
Canada processing in Washington got really backlogged and it was taking a year to get a CLN here. I was told in May that they were now trying to clear up the Canadian backlog. I don’t know, of course, how the backlog occurred or what’s going on… but it seems seems like these Canadian CLN applications must have just been sitting there for months because all of a sudden CLNs started to arrive here in bunches.
CLNs began arriving in Canada in batches geographically: Calgary (June), then Halifax (July), then Montreal (July). It looks like now it’s Toronto’s turn. They seem to arrive in bunches by consulate, but not in chronological order.
An example: the first, and so far only, Calgary CLNs that were reported to Brock came in in June. Six people reported receiving their CLNs between June 9th and June 21st.
The 6 people had filed their CLN applications at the Calgary Consulate in: January (CLN received June 9), March (June 12), February (June 13), May (June 15), November (June 16) and February (June 21).LikeLike
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@tiger I have no idea why some relinquishments/renunciations are taking longer than others. I’m optimistic though that I may get mine soon based on the pattern that Pacifica described at the other Canadian consulates.
@Pacifica thanks for summarizing the order the CLNs were received in Calgary. Keeps me from feeling anxious that someone that went later than me already received theirs. I’m assuming that Toronto will follow a similar pattern.LikeLike
@Pacifica
Have you noticed whether there is a different response time for CLNs based on relinquishment vs CLNs based on renunciation?
I have two nephews who are foreign service officers for the State Department. If I were a ‘pushier’ type, I would ask them to look into the country discrepancies and the differences in U.S.consulates in Canada. I have certainly spoken to their mother (my sister) about all of this on the phone. She has not volunteered to ask her sons to look into it.
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@Tiger,
I don’t think there is any difference in the turnaround time between renunuciations and s.(1) relinquishments. Of course, our sample is very small.
There was only 1 relinquisher in the Calgary group of 6 people. That happened to be the first CLN that arrived. He was the second earliest of this group to apply for a CLN (January). All 6 CLNs arrived within 11 days in June.
At Halifax, we had 4 CLNs reported. 3 relinquishers (January) and 1 renunciant (February) all received their CLNs within about a week in July.
Montreal we had 1 renunciant (March), received CLN July.
For other continents, we only have 2 relinquishments, they both got their CLNs in 1-2 months, which seems to be pretty standard for the reunciations outside Canada too.
Hopefully, with Washington now clearing up the Canada backlog, from here on in they will be processing Canadian CLN applications as they receive them, as they’ve been doing with the other countries.LikeLike
@quincy and anyone else
To repeat a response I gave on the IBS site yesterday, for those who don’t monitor it:
If your CLN meeting was several months ago and you haven’t heard anything, I think it’s reasonable to assume it’s somewhere in the chaotic stack on someone’s desk in Washington and/or still under review. It’s highly unlikely, unless there is something terribly deficient in your application that the consulate didn’t pick up on in your interview, that your application is going to be rejected at this stage.
I say this because I know two people in Canada who mailed their forms directly to the State Department office in Washington a few months ago, on the advice of a lawyer, hoping to end-run the queue. Five weeks later, which is REALLY fast in Candian experience, their forms were returned to them by mail with a polite letter saying essentially “nice try, but no cigar; if you want us to process your application, you MUST go to an embassy or consulate to do that.” So if something is off the rails you should have heard about that by now. They do seem to be prompt (for them) at getting back to you, if you screw up somehow. At least that’s what I think is a reasonable assumption, given the above and everything else I’ve heard and can guess at.
However if you’ve been waiting more than about six months, I’d politely call or email the consulate (maybe even ask for the consular officer you spoke with, if you got the name) and ask what’s happening. They’ll likely tell you they don’t know either, because once it leaves the consulate and goes to Washington it’s beyond their control or ken. However we do know of one prominent case (Petros at IBS) whose relinquishment application did somehow get in-boxed in Toronto and sat there for a while before he called and they realized they’d forgot to mail it to him … so no harm in contacting them for a follow up, just be calm and polite about it.
At the end of my wife’s interview in Toronto, she was told her application should take two-six months. The consular officer went on to stress that once the application goes to Washington, it’s in a large bureaucracy and he couldn’t guarantee anything about how long they’d take. He went on to say that if she hadn’t heard anything in six months, she should call or email the consulate (he actually gave her a specific email address on a piece of paper) to check up on it. So they probably won’t mind, certainly not in Toronto from the evidence, if you politely and quietly follow up with them after a reasonable time delay (six months is reasonable, it seems, and certainly anything longer than that warrants a call IMO).
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Maple Sandbox Historical Archive – 2012 to 2016
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Maple Sandbox Historical Archive - 2012 to 2016 
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