There is a bit of anxiety concerning what happens at the US border once you have a CLN or once you’ve applied for one. Or for that matter, if you have a Canadian passport that shows a US birthplace, have no US passport and don’t want one, and haven’t yet decided whether a CLN is a good idea for you. If you’re one of any of these concerned people, this post and thread are for you.
My wife and I just returned from a week-long family visit to the US. We travelled by air, crossing US customs and immigration at pre-clearance at Pearson Airport in Toronto. My wife had applied for a relinquishment CLN several months earlier. She is still waiting for it, but in the meantime, the vice-consul told her at the interview that her CLN application file is now on the State Department website and is accessible to DHS staff at the border, if there is any question about why she is crossing the border on a Canadian passport that shows a US birthplace. (If you have a CLN or have applied for one, there is no way you can possibly have a US passport. If you had one before applying for the CLN, you are required to surrender it during the application process. Once you’ve sworn either the relinquishment or renunciation oath, you cannot be issued a US passport. So it would be absurd for a border guard to insist that you present a US passport at the border.)
Both of us have Canadian passports with US birthplaces. I have a CLN that was issued to me in 1976, based on my relinquishment upon becoming a Canadian in 1975. I would assume, in fact I would hope, that my CLN is flagged on the DOS and DHS computer systems; I’d be disappointed if it weren’t. But, I’m not going to ask a border guard or any other US official if it is. I don’t believe in kicking sleeping bears; such behaviour tends to be bad for the health.
Our border crossing last week was our first crossing since my wife applied for her CLN, so we were a little nervous, on her account (I always carry a photocopy of my CLN with my passport when I travel). Needlessly, as it turned out.
The pre-clearance area at Pearson wasn’t very busy; we were referred to an agent almost immediately after we arrived in the area. The agent examined both our passports, then scanned both of them into his computer. He examined the computer screen. He asked us how long we would be visiting the US, the purpose of the visit, and the usual questions about what we were bringing into the US (no tobacco, no alcohol) and the value of any gifts we’d be leaving behind in the US. He then entry-visa-stamped both our passports, initialed the visa stamps, and wished us a nice trip. No questions about citizenship, about why no US passport, about CLNs, nor any reference to the T word. He didn’t need to ask where we were staying; I had to give the hotel name, address and phone number to the airline when getting the boarding passes (which information I believe is now routinely shared between the US and Canada and probably many other countries), and also had to give that information on the US customs declaration form. No ogres awaited us as we got off the plane in the US. At no time during our week-long stay at the hotel were we ever contacted by any official of any level of US government. Our return to Canada was uneventful.
So, at least in our case, two Canadians born in the US, both of whom have relinquished their US citizenship, crossed the border together on their Canadian passports in mid-August 2012 without incident.
What if you have a Canadian passport that shows a US birthplace, don’t have a US passport and don’t want one because you don’t consider yourself a US citizen, and want to cross the US border? Stories here are mixed. My wife was in those shoes until a few months ago. She’s been across the US border for decades on her Canadian passport with US birthplace and has never once been “cautioned” or “warned” that she “has” to have a US passport to go back. But we have two friends who have been cautioned. Both our friends want to keep crossing the US border, because they both have adult children and now grandchildren living in the US, whom they want to visit. One has decided he wants to remain a dual US-Canada citizen, got a US passport, and spent thousands of dollars to become compliant with IRS demands (he hadn’t filed any US tax forms since becoming a Canadian). The other friend has absolutely no desire or intention ever to get a US passport, never has had one, also hasn’t filed US tax forms since becoming a Canadian more than 30 years ago, and has been “warned” when crossing by land (never, so far, during air crossings). Each time she has been warned, she smiled calmly and said essentially “I’m a Canadian, I’m not an American, this is my passport, and I want to cross on it.” She’s had her name entered at least once in the US border computers over this, has then been let in, and has subsequently gone back across without any further problems, at least not yet.
The lawyer my wife and I consulted in my wife’s case has a client who so far has been “warned” four times and still crosses; the warnings have delayed his border crossings, but he still gets in. As far as we can tell, so far these “warnings” seem to be random, at the whim of the particular border officer, and don’t (yet) have any serious consequences. But that could always change.
On the subject of visa stamps: since August 2011, my wife and I have crossed the US border five times on various family visits, twice by car (in Vermont) and three times by air (twice at Pearson and once clearing US immigration in Newark NJ). All three air crossings netted us US entry visa stamps on our passports (as a matter of what seems to be routine now at the airports; we didn’t ask for the visa stamps nor did we need to); none of the car crossings resulted in visa stamps (we presented our passports at both those crossings). Thanks to the air crossings, we now both can prove beyond any doubt that we’ve been admitted to the US carrying Canadian passports that show US birthplaces. Our feisty friend who keeps crossing in spite of warnings on land has also acquired a collection of US visa stamps in her Canadian passport, when she flies into the US.
Things can always change at the border. Lightning can strike at any time in the future. An incoming asteroid could destroy life or civilization as we know it on Earth. So far, however, the sky is not falling. We will enjoy what’s left of the summer, and we look forward to the maple leaves turning this Fall. We’ll be vigilant and prepared when we cross the border, but we aren’t losing any sleep over the issue of our passports and citizenships, at least not yet (if ever).
I invite other US-borns living in Canada (or elsewhere outside the US) who have Canadian (or other) passports showing a US birthplace, and who do not have a US passport, whether they have a CLN, have applied for one, or haven’t applied for one, to share their border-crossing experiences on this thread in the coming months, especially if anything disturbing happens. When you report your experience, please identify whether you have or have applied for a CLN (and if so, whether it was a renunciation or relinquishment), or not, and also indicate whether your experience was at an airport or at a land crossing. If you feel comfortable doing so, also indicate which airport or border crossing was involved.
I hope this thread can serve both to provide some comfort level (for as long as that’s appropriate) and, as needed, an early-warning system for things that may come, and perhaps some ammunition to use to try to nudge our government to take issue with the US over this if things start to get out of hand. (Remember Blaine Washington …)
PS I just edited the title of the thread, which originally read “Canadian passport” instead of “non-US passport.” Sorry for the Canada-centric tendencies; I am Canadian and that’s my perspective, but I recognize and respect that there are lots of US expats/former USPs (to use Johnnb’s point which I also have raised elsewhere) who live in countries other than Canada and who share some of these concerns. Not sure whether people entering the US from, for example, Switzerland (to pick a country which raises some hackles in parts of US officialdom these days) will get treated differently from people crossing from Canada. In theory everyone should be handled the same way, but we all know that there’s always a big gap between theory and practice. If you reply to this thread with border-crossing examples, please indicate from what country you were coming into the US if it wasn’t Canada and if you think that may have made a difference to your treatment.
Crossing the US Border on a non-US passport showing a US birthplace
Published by
on
269 responses to “Crossing the US Border on a non-US passport showing a US birthplace”
-
[…] Continue reading here: Crossing the US Border on a non-US passport showing a US … […]
LikeLike
-
My wife and a friend went on a shopping trip to Maine today. Easy crossing and didn’t get asked anything about a CLN nor was she told this time that she was a US citizen. I think she was a little bit disappointed.
LikeLike
-
schubert, some months ago I read a horror story by someone who was detained when crossing into the US with a Canadian passport showing a US birthplace. I can’t find it now, but it may well be the story that you refer to when you say “remember Blaine, Washington”.
Can you point me to this story? Thanks.LikeLike
-
*WhatAmI Sorry for the vagueness. The story I was referring to wasn’t specifically about crossing the US border with a Canadian passport, it was about a particular border guard who had repeatedly harassed people crossing into the US (particularly women, from what I recall), was eventually “outed” by a number of complaints, and was I believe fired or forced to take early retirement, anyway he’s no longer at the border crossing at Blaine. The story did highlight however that border guards have arguably too much discretion and, as may be inevitable when large numbers of people have that discretion, some people abuse their power, especially when they aren’t being observed or monitored by higher-ups.
I do know someone who was crossing by car with her Canadian passport (US birthplace) and with her adult son in the car (Canadian passport and Canadian birthplace, but it came out in the grilling that he was her son and hence arguably a USC). They were detained about fifteen minutes while the border guard argued with the woman about her citizenship (who refused to conceed USC, she’s eligible for a relinquishment though AFAIK she hasn’t applied for a CLN yet) and then tried to pressue the son into conceeding he is USC. After 15 minutes of this abuse, they were let through, rather shaken and outraged at the experience. The woman saw the border guard make some sort of entry into their computer, but she’s crossed the border by car since then, still with her Canadian passport, without further incident. So for now I’d chalk this up to random bullying by someone who should never have been given a uniform or a badge, rather than any remotely systematic attempt to enforce a formal policy. This particular incident I only know about privately from the woman involved (a friend of my wife and me), hasn’t been in the press, and I know the woman doesn’t want any publicity over this if it can identify her.
I don’t have a link to that story about Blaine, it was on the CBC News website I think about a year ago. It made the Canada-wide section, it wasn’t just in the BC section of the website.LikeLike
-
schubert, OK, thanks, that’s not the story after all. The story I’m looking for was about crossing the border by car, somewhere in BC to the US, likely Washington. As a result of the entry problem (I think they were denied), if I remember correctly, they got US passports, started filing with the IRS and all sorts of things and their lives have been turned upside down. It may be that I’m confusing multiple posts I read early this year. It was all quite upsetting so I had to leave it be for a few months.
LikeLike
-
@WhatAmI: I think the person may be Calgary411. I hope Calgary doesn’t mind me giving her example here. She was hassled crossing into US (don’t know which border crossing) and told she must get a US passport. She did. Her life since then has been a nightmare of having to become compliant with IRS.
I don’t know your details, but if you have a Canadian passport with US place of birth, my advice is don’t get a US passport, even if you are told to do so. I was told in 2004 to always enter as a US citizen. In 2011, I was told to get a US passport. I have not and will not get a US passport. Since then, I have had no problems entering on Canadian passport with US place of birth.
Some border guards are going to try to make life difficult, no matter what. Here is a report about problems of Canadians simply going to a baseball game in US.
http://blogs.windsorstar.com/2012/08/28/53024/
Three Canadian women have complained of being strip searched at US border: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/story/2012/03/13/wdr-border-assault-lawsuits.html
To the best of my knowledge, neither of these relate to a US place of birth on passport. There was a report at Brock about someone at the border being told something like “You will stop being a US citizen when we tell you you are no longer a US citizen.”
On the other hand, Canadian border guards also sometimes make life difficult. http://bc.ctvnews.ca/travellers-report-rude-accusatory-border-employees-1.940707
I personally have always found Canadian border folks friendlier. A recent report found Canadian border guards have drawn their guns or used pepper spray less frequently this year. Yikes!
(link no longer works at Calgary Herald – removed)
The two important things are that the problems seem to be limited. Most people are having no problems crossing on Canadian passport with US place of birth. Don’t let yourself get intimidated into getting a US passport.
Most importantly, don’t let this whole IRS issue stress you out too much. It was probably wise to take some time away from it it was causing problems.
Welcome to Maple Sandbox. I hope you will continue to share, grow and explore with us.LikeLike
-
@Blaze: Yes, thanks, I found her story and indeed I think it is Calgary411 that stuck in my mind.
LikeLike
-
I’ve been hassled three times at by US border guards about my US birthplace, and all of them were long before any of this hit the radar. One threw my Canadian passport at me, another one threw my Cdn citizenship paper (pre-passport requirement days) on the floor and told me I was a US citizen, period. Another just verbally harangued me. Frankly, I just chalked it up to bullies finding any opportunity to bully a woman who couldn’t do anything about it. I didn’t take any of it seriously. Interestingly, none told me I had to have a US passport to enter the US, they just insisted I was a US citizen and that what I thought about it didn’t matter.
LikeLike
-
@Outraged. Sounds like the bullies you ran into got career promotions to the embassy here in Ottawa, from all reports including one today where someone was told to come back for their second renunciation appointment in August 2013. I know someone else in Ottawa who was treated much the same as you were, in the embassy during an abortive relinquishment interview earlier this year. As I’ve said before, there are some people who should never be given a badge, a uniform, or a desk with their national flag behind it. These people are supposed to represent their country, and their behaviour reflects badly not only on them but on the country whose badge and uniform, and under whose flag and in whose name, they behave like that.
All our US friends who come up here have commented to us on how nice and polite Canadian border guards are, and how rude US border guards can be even to Americans coming back on US passports.LikeLike
-
Wow, somehow I find it even worse that this kind of behaviour would take place in an embassy, during such a serious appointment. Wow.
LikeLike
-
Yup.
There needs to be some serious house-cleaning at the US Embassy in Ottawa, starting at the top with the current ambassador. When you have a repeated pattern of bullying over (to my knowledge based on reports from friends whose judgment and veracity I trust) about 12-13 months in the same building, the buck stops at the top. There is a seriously malicious culture operating in that particular building, I think, and based on several stories I’ve heard or reports I’ve seen. Problem is, host countries rarely get to pick who the foreign ambassador is, even if they’re sufficiently motivated to raise a stink over it.
Does not speak highly for the administration that appointed that ambassador, whatever one thinks of their opponents in the coming election. (If I still were an American and contemplating the choices in November, I don’t know whether I’d disappear into the woods with a case of wine, write “Bugs Bunny” into the write-in space on the ballot, or open my wrists with a razor in a hot bathtub. Or, more likely, do what I did anyway in 1969 and leave the country never to return. The choice in 1968 was just as grim, and arguably even worse with Wallace and Lemay on the ballot though they didn’t have a serious chance of winning.)LikeLike
-
I think people unconsciously hold an embassy/consulate to a higher standard than, say, border patrol or the driver’s licence bureau — a diplomatic post is seen as representing a country. People certainly do not expect to harassed/bullied/etc at a diplomatic post of all places.
A paradox with the extreme behaviour at Ottawa is people say it felt like they were trying to get out of the Soviet Union. That would really diminish one’s esteem of the US. Which is completely counter-productive to why countries have embassies in the first place.LikeLike
-
This topic just reminded me of a comment I made recently on Brock in a discussion about Toronto (a consulate widely regarded as a credit to the country they represent).
[Start Quote] “I found the consulate staff very pleasant, cordial and professional to deal with. I actually left the consulate feeling good about the United States … and after the hassles we US-born people have been dealing with lately, that’s pretty impressive!” [End Quote]
That’s how people should leave a consulate. Face it, there’s always been a lot of people in the world who dislike the United States. Their own consulates should be the last people trying to increase that number!
With new US policies destroying the lives of US citizens and former citizens outside the US, sensible consulates are, in effect, doing a sort of damage control. Of course, I’m still outraged about this whole “US mess” … but the US govt representatives at their Toronto consulate made me feel like, well, I wasn’t escaping a fascist regime, I was terminating a contractual relationship amicably.
Bluntly put, the US govt representatives at Toronto created a positive impression of their country, which enables me to move forward without hating their country.
If a person were to bullied, harassed and/or obstructed in their final transaction with the US, what is their lasting impression of the United States? And what good does it do anyone?LikeLike
-
Very well said. I had the same favourable impression leaving the consulate in Halifax. Professional, polite and helpful.
LikeLike
-
-
@schubert, there is a great term in French – le petit chef (the little boss) and to get it just right say it with a sneer. 🙂 It refers to someone in a bureaucracy or hierarchy who has just enough power to be a nuisance and who uses it to abuse people even though he or she is not necessarily very high up in hierarchy or very important. A petty bureaucrat might be another way to translate it who just chooses to be unpleasant just for the hell of it.
I think they exist almost everywhere….
LikeLike
-
You’re right, we even have a few of those in Canada. I had this misfortune of having to report to one or two during my tenure in the federal bureaucracy. Somehow I naively believe/hope that embassies would do better than that, given what they’re supposed to represent, but I realize that’s dreaming in technicolor for any country. Still doesn’t excuse the behaviour though.
I must remember that French phrase, I hope my execrable accent doesn’t ruin it when I say it … I wonder, does the cartoon strip “Dilbert” run in France, and if so do they translate “pointy-haired boss” with “le petit Chef”?LikeLike
@Schubert: My American family and friends usually would far rather deal with Canadian border guards coming into Canada than they would deal with US ones on their return to US.
LikeLike
My husband and I crossed the border at the Peace Bridge into the USA on August 10. My husband has no US ties (born in Denmark, Canadian citizen for decades). I was born in the USA, and came to Canada in 1971 as a student, been living entirely in Canada since then, and became a citizen in 2002. Since 2002 I have always traveled with a Canadian passport and never had any questions asked about my US birthplace or any problems. However since I heard about this tax mess last fall I have been very nervous about crossing, but once again there was no problem at all. The border guard looked at our passports and asked the usual questions about length of stay etc.
I don’t have a CLN nor have I applied to relinquish. It seems that many on this site are in the same position as me, and don’t know what to do. Stay off the IRS radar, or relinquish?
LikeLike
@Somerfugl,
I don’t know if the answers to the following questions make any difference to your case, but I’m curious:
– how old were you when you left the US for Canada?
– did you ever have a SSN, work and submit tax forms to the US?
– did you sign a form indicating that you wanted to keep your US citizenship when you became a Canadian citizen? (a friend of mine did that when becoming Canadian in 2003).
– have you ever had a US passport?
– have you renewed a US passport after becoming Canadian in 2002?
Do you have children? They are likely US citizens if born before 1986/11/14 and you were 19 or older when you left the US. If born after that date, they are USCs if you left the US when you were 16 or older.
http://www.greencardlawyers.com/citizenship/citizenbybirth.html#Chart%20to%20Determine%20Citizenship%20Rules
http://www.grasmick.com/citizen.htm#CITIZENSHIP%20FROM
LikeLike
-
@WhatAml. I was 23 in 1971 when I came to Canada from the USA to attend grad school. I worked in the USA when I was a university student on a co-op program. I have a SS number, but my income was so low I don’t remember if my mother filed taxes for me or not. I got a US passport when I was age 21 (and living in the US) because I took a trip to Europe. I renewed it in Canada right after I got married to my Canadian husband and we took a trip to Europe. I had not been in Canada long enough to take out Canadian citizenship, so had no choice re: passport.
After that I usually just used a Canadian drivers license or whatever to cross the border to visit relatives. Rules for crossing were a lot simpler then. Once that US passport (from the 1970’s) expired I never renewed it.
When I became Canadian in 2002 I assumed that I was losing my US citizenship which is what I wanted. I did not sign any papers to keep US citizenship. Since then I have done nothing to claim US citizenship and I always travel on a Canadian passport.
Yes, I know my 2 daughters have US citizenship. One actually took advantage of it after completing her PhD and works in the US. However, I don’t think this should affect me, as I have done nothing since becoming Canadian , to claim US citizenship. I have never filed US taxes once I left the US. My adult life has been lived entirely in CAnada.
My other daughter is considering relinquishing her US as she has done nothing to claim US citizenship, lives in Canada and has no intention of ever living in the US. She also does not want to get her Canadian husband involved in the FACTA mess.
So I’m not sure what to do regarding relinquishment. With FACTA coming I guess I should make a decision soon and go ahead and apply for a CLN.LikeLike
-
@Somerfugl, your details are similar to those of a fellow I spoke with (not on this forum) who applied for a retroactive CLN. It seems to be going through and he’s waiting for it to arrive in the mail. He came to Canada when 5 yrs old, but he later registered for the military/draft and had a US passport, but did nothing US-related after getting his Canadian citizenship. He never had a SSN or worked in the US though. I don’t know if that matters.
LikeLike
-
@WhatAmI: Having a SSN or working in US prior to having become a Canadian citizen does not make a difference to being able to relinquish.
What is important is what happens after one swears that Oath of Allegiance to US. Somerfugl did nothing to reclaim her US citizenship after that date. It is also my understanding that she became a Canadian citizen with the intent that she was relinquishing her US citizenship.
Because she became a Canadian before 2004, she had no obligation to inform IRS. Therefore, she should be able to get a back dated CLN. The question she and many of us have is whether we are better off with a CLN or better off staying away from DOS and IRS completely.
I personally have made the decision to stay away. I compare it to Schubert’s Sleeping Bear. I personally am turning around and not going to cross the bear’s path. Others are choosing to gently tiptoe around the bear by getting a CLN. There may be risks, but we assess that risk and make the best decision we can for ourselves.LikeLike
-
Thanks for those details. I seems Somerfugl has a good chance at a back-dated CLN.
I’m in the position of trying to determine if I can get a back-dated CLN without exposing myself to the DOS in order to ask! Other than going to the consul in the 70’s, I didn’t do any physical act of relinquishment other than to ignore the US and live intentionally as a Canadian. Why would I have, since the consul told me I wasn’t a US citizen!
My own story is here:What am I? Born in the US but the US consulate told me in 1970s that I am not an American
LikeLike
-
@WhatAml. I was 23 in 1971 when I came to Canada from the USA to attend grad school. I worked in the USA when I was a university student on a co-op program. I have a SS number, but my income was so low I don’t remember if my mother filed taxes for me or not. I got a US passport when I was age 21 (and living in the US) because I took a trip to Europe. I renewed it in Canada right after I got married to my Canadian husband and we took a trip to Europe. I had not been in Canada long enough to take out Canadian citizenship, so had no choice re: passport.
After that I usually just used a Canadian drivers license or whatever to cross the border to visit relatives. Rules for crossing were a lot simpler then. Once that US passport (from the 1970’s) expired I never renewed it.
When I became Canadian in 2002 I assumed that I was losing my US citizenship which is what I wanted. I did not sign any papers to keep US citizenship. Since then I have done nothing to claim US citizenship and I always travel on a Canadian passport.
Yes, I know my 2 daughters have US citizenship. One actually took advantage of it after completing her PhD and works in the US. However, I don’t think this should affect me, as I have done nothing since becoming Canadian , to claim US citizenship. I have never filed US taxes once I left the US. My adult life has been lived entirely in CAnada.
My other daughter is considering relinquishing her US as she has done nothing to claim US citizenship, lives in Canada and has no intention of ever living in the US. She also does not want to get her Canadian husband involved in the FACTA mess.
So I’m not sure what to do regarding relinquishment. With FACTA coming I guess I should make a decision soon and go ahead and apply for a CLN.
LikeLike
-
Just wondering if you have recieved any feedback on your situation. I have a simlilar story. I was born in US though, I have renounced my citizenship but after having my two children. I have never registered them with US but assume if enough border hassle was done they would want to claim them. I am just concerned if ever traveling with them, would these questions come up and would a simple “OK, Thanks for pointing that out” work? I may be safe though as after the age of 14, I was out of US for quite some time (more then 6 months) so technically, I wasnt physically present long enough to pass the citizenship requirements. I left US at age 16.
LikeLike
-
If your children were born in Canada there is no problem. Not sure what you are concerned about.
LikeLike
-
The possible “automatic” transmission of US Citizenship and being hassled at the border for my kids to claim it, it should be their decision if they wish later in life to pursue it or claim it if they can. I do not think they are US citizens but of course depending on “who” you talk to, what internet site etc, they all state different things. I want to protect my kids from this garbage and it would be nice to not live in fear of traveling to the US to visit their grandfather. Some sites say it doesnt have to be you as the parent but kids can get it from grandparents citizenship.
LikeLike
Victoria, Schubert, Tiger, Pacifica, Blaze, and others,
I share your sentiments. I, too, am a long-time ex-pat (left US over 40 years ago, Canadian citizen for over 30 years). I applied for a relinquishment CLN at the Toronto consulate in June and am still waiting for the CLN to arrive. Meanwhile, my wife and I are refraining from travel to the US, as we have done for over a year.
I’m not quite sure what to do re the IRS after the CLN arrives. I’m thinking of writing them a letter, since I agreed on form 4081 that I would contact them, but I don’t plan to fill out any IRS forms, because I don’t think they have legal grounds to demand that. I’m interested in hearing about the experiences of other long-ago relinquishers with that issue.
LikeLike
-
I would like to point there is no requirement for Relinquishers to fill out form DS-4081(Only DS-4079). However the State Department “strongly” encourages you to do so. Some day I am going to try to write a post explaining this in more detail.
LikeLike
-
will be most interesting in seeing such a post.
Do you know of anyone who has successfully got a CLN or had a CLN application accepted without submitting a form 4081? My reading of the situation, based partly on decades as a (Canadian) federal bureaucrat, is that it’s unlikely a vice-consul is going to accept and process a CLN without the 4081. I believe it’s there to cover State’s butt from various things the Supreme Court and lower courts have said about various CLN-related cases. However I’m no lawyer and could be wrong about this. But I am quite skeptical that walking into a consulate with a 4079 and refusing to file or sign a 4081 is going to get you very far. It certainly would provoke some attention, I expect.LikeLike
-
@AnonAnon: My understanding is you don’t have any obligation to IRS. You relinquished prior to 1986. It was automatic (supposedly “permanently and irrevocably”) that one relinquished US citizenship then by becoming a citizen of another country.
As you may know, Michael J Miller posted at Brock that it was his understanding from a conversation with an IRS agent that anyone who relinquished prior to 2004 had no obligation to inform DOS or IRS. Personally, I would not report to IRS. But, I’m not even going to get a CLN, so I certainly understand that it is a very personal decision that each person has to make.
My only reason for crossing the border is to visit my elderly mother. After her death, I will simply stay in Canada and spend my money here.
LikeLike
@Tim: I was posting at the same time as you did. Your input is much more objective and informed than mine. I look forward to a further post on this–although I’m still not planning on filing any forms with IRS.
LikeLike
@anonanon: My wife and I are about the same as you. We came to Canada 44 years ago and took out Canadian citizenship after the then mandatory 5 year waiting period. Thought we had given up our US citizenship when we became Canadian and swore an oath to the Queen. We had never even heard about CLNs back then.
About this time last year we started hearing stuff about an amnesty for tax evaders and thought nothing of it – not us for sure. We had had some interesting conversations with border guards when crossing into the US. They handed back our passports and told us we were still US citizens. We said we weren’t but they insisted. Since they let us in we didn’t press the issue.
Someone then told us that if you were considered a US citizen by the US then the whole tax mess applied to you and you also should have a US passport to enter the US. We got very worried and started to look into things and found this rats nest of conflicting opinions, threats from the IRS, dire warnings from accounting firms, well, you know the drill.
Even though Flaherty said Canada would not collect penalties we felt that getting the paper that confirmed what we already knew – we relinquished back in 1973 was our best way to go. We were afraid that laws would change or the US would change the rules yet again and we wanted something that said we were out in ’73. Notice that by December we knew about relinquishment vs renunciation, 4079 from 4081, more than we ever wanted to know.
We booked appointments in Halifax in January, signed everything and got our CLN’s just one week short of six months later.
There is one special circumstance we have which we think works in our favour. Since we were US citizens up until the end of 1973 we had filed US tax forms every year to then. We filed a final (joint) return for 1973 and sent a cover letter saying we no longer considered ourselves US citizens and would not be filing any more US tax returns. Since form 4081 says that it is our responsibility to contact the IRS we think that cover letter satisfies that. If it doesn’t we were not planning on saying anything to them anyway as we refuse to admit that if the CLN is dated 1973 we would have any obligation to the IRS now. I don’t think they are going to say anything to the people in our situation.
LikeLike
Thanks for all the replies. What I’m really hoping for is someone who has received confirmation from the IRS that those of us who relinquished before 2004 (or 1996, or whatever the relevant date is) have no further obligations to report to them, as far as they are concerned. That may be too much to hope for, but when I get my CLN and write to them, that is what I will be asking them for. Among other things, I plan to quote from Michael J. Miller’s comments on that. If and when I get a reply to my letter, I will be happy to share it on this site and on the Isaac Brock Society site. I wish and hope the people at the IRS would have the human decency to let it be known what they think are the legal limits of their claims to our past, and why.
I would be happy never entering the U.S. again, except that we have some relatives and friends there who are in declining health and whom we would like to be able to visit.
Also, relevant to this discussion thread: I recent years when we traveled by car to the US, the border guards a couple of times have noted my US birthplace and said that I was a US citizen and should be entering on a US passport. I didn’t want to argue with them, on the principle that one can never win an argument with them. So I just smiled and said “oh” or “ok” and continued to use my Canadian passport the next time.
LikeLike
@AnonAnon
I don’t give advice on taxation matters, since I’m neither a lawyer nor an accountant and hence not qualified. Also, I’ve had enough lay experience in this area through private and internet exchanges to know that everyone’s situation is a bit different, and “one size does not fit all.”
That being said, and along the lines of my other thread here
http://maplesandbox.ca/the-sleeping-bear-metaphor/
I would personally and non-professionally suggest that you NOT contact the IRS, nor respond to any correspondence you might get from them, concerning the matters you raised, without first getting some legal advice from a lawyer who is familiar with the issues. Possibly even two lawyers, if you can afford it, because there are enough legal grey areas in the subjects that you raise, that two qualified lawyers might give somewhat different advice on how to proceed or indeed whether to proceed at all. In the end, it’s a decision only you can make.
Whether or not you contact a lawyer, I very strongly suggest you refrain from any contact with the IRS until you have your CLN in your hands. I see no need for you to have contact with them before then, if ever, and I can think of several good arguments why you shouldn’t contact them before the CLN arrives (in a decades-old relinquishment case, for sure).
I am not endorsing or recommending any of the following lawyers, beyond saying that I personally know of at least one person who has used each of them (four people, one for each lawyer, I don’t know anyone who’s gone to all four) and have spoken or corresponded privately or on the internet enough with those individuals (the relinquishers, but not with all the lawyers though I have with a couple of them) to feel comfortable that all four are reasonably-to-very knowledgeable in this area, and I believe that all have dealt with similar cases already. However to my knowledge no one who has received a relinquishment CLN has yet had any definitive result re the taxation matters you raise. (Except me, but I’ve had my CLN for 35 years, and if the IRS were to contact me now all they’d get from me is a verbal analog to my upraised middle finger.)
I believe that, if you keep your questions focussed and present your background information clearly enough, the costs of getting advice won’t likely be exorbitant. There may be other lawyers I don’t know about who are as qualified and maybe more conveniently located for you. I am deliberately not including US-based lawyers because I don’t feel comfortable about them with these issues as they affect Canadians. I know at least two of these lawyers will do telephone and/or email consultations long-distance and suspect one or both of the others might as well.
As always with any lawyer, start with a confidential summary of your case and questions, and get a fee quote, before deciding to proceed. The quote shouldn’t just be an hourly rate (you might faint at one or two of those), but also how many billable hours they think it would take (that’s where you may be a little more relieved, especially if you’re getting verbal and not written advice and not planning to go into court over this, which I doubt would be necessary).
In no particular order (except I believe the first one has likely handled more relinquishment cases than the others):
http://www.keelcottrelle.com/directory.php?lawyer=cperry (Toronto)
http://www.moodystax.com/meet/our-team/roy-berg.html (Calgary)
(editor removed broken link) (Charles Rotenberg, Ottawa)
http://www.barnessammon.ca/blog/2012/06/15/kenneth-j-bickley/ (Ottawa)
If anyone else visiting this site has lawyer names or links to share, please do so.
LikeLike
Thanks, Schubert. I will probably follow your advice and consult a lawyer before I contact the IRS.
LikeLike
AnonAnon, I am a little concerned that the Toronto Consulate asks for your last US address. I immigrated to Canada at age 6 in 1956 and my parents are both deceased. The only thing I could find was an ancient letter with what looks like a rural route number and P.O. box number, but it’s hard to read. That and the town are all I could provide. Don’t know if that would be a deal breaker. I received my citizenship file from 1972 in July(it took approx 5 weeks to get) and have been sitting on the fence since. The situation has shown no sign of improvement so I am leaning toward the CLN option now. I think Schubert has offered sound advice, and I woud likely contact an experienced lawyer prior to making the consulate visit. As Tim suggests I would prefer to not sign the 4081 but I am sure the consulate rep would insist otherwise.
LikeLike
@CDN, AnonAnon. I overlooked the bit about your last US address.
I don’t know about renunciations, but I can confirm that when she went forward with her (now successful) relinquishment application to Toronto, at no time was my wife ever asked her last US address. I doubt she remembers it (it would have been in the late 1960s), and it’s utterly irrelevant to her and probably any other relinquishment. Relinquishment is dated from when you committed your expatriating act (likely becoming a Canadian or other foreign citizen). What you did or didn’t do, and where you lived, prior to then is irrelevant to your application. I very much doubt you got your “foreign” citizenship while still living at a US address.
The only question about previous address that is any of their business is on Form 4079 Question 5, where they ask you to list the dates and countries of residence OUTSIDE THE US since you were born. And even then, they don’t want every street or town address, all they want to know is what country, and during what years. On question 13a they ask if you still maintain a residence in the US and, if so, please explain. Having a residence in the US, maybe even a holiday residence like a Florida condo but I’m not sure about this, could be a “deal breaker,” or not, depending on what it is and why you have it. Absent any guidance anywhere on the State website about what counts or doesn’t, and how much, in the “preponderance of evidence” “calculation” is anyone’s guess right now. On that specific point, if in doubt, contact a lawyer (I suggest the one in Toronto named in an earlier post of mine a couple of days ago, because she’s handled a large number of cases and might have run across this — though whether there is any feedback yet in such a case re CLN/no CLN I have no idea).
They also want to know on 4079 the date and number of your last US passport (if any, and if you still have that information) and where it was issued, but the latter is likely the nearest consulate and maybe not even the town you were living in.
I think it would be highly irregular for a vice-consul to ask for your last US address during this process, at least in a relinquishment case (and even in a renunciation I don’t see how it can have any relevance to your renunciation). Maybe one of the dark-side bullies in the embassy in Ottawa might try that on you (I leave it to your best judgment what might be the most appropriate response to intrusive and irrelevant questioning during the interview, but probably best to keep your middle finger under control while in the building), but I’d be very surprised if anyone in any other consulate in Canada would press you on this. If (unlikely IMO) it does come up in the interview, the first response might be “why do you ask and what does it matter, I don’t see anything on these forms that asks that.” Just be polite and smile as you say that … But as I said and will repeat, I have trouble understanding why anyone outside the Fuehrerbunker on Sussex Drive would throw such a question at you.
LikeLike
-
As I understand it, a US citizen living outside the US remains registered to vote in the district of their last US address. Also, voting in a US election after an expatriating act is evidence that the person intended to retain US citizenship rather than relinquish it. That’s why I think the State Dept. wants the last US address for those of us who are claiming relinquishment. I don’t think it would be relevant in cases of renunciation.
LikeLike
-
Interesting. I also was not asked my last US address when relinquishing at Toronto earlier this year. As AnonAnon was asked his/hers more recently, perhaps they’ve changed their policy on that, or it varies by who you’re dealing with? The only place I was aware of that was asking relinquishers this was Vancouver, who sent the same info sheet to both renounce and relinquish people. It definitely seems to be required for renouncing because they fill it in on the renunciation oath form.
LikeLike
-
@Schubert
You mention Question 5 on the DS-4079 where they ask you to list the ‘dates and countries of residence outside the U.S. since birth’. I thought you only were required to give that information, if you answered yes to the following part of Question 5: ‘ if not born in the U.S., did you acquire citizenship by birth outside the U.S. to U.S. citizen parent(s).’
I have not listed the places I have lived outside the U.S., as I was born in the U.S. Am I perhaps wrong and need to list the places and dates (it would show only Canada from the date of my landing up to and including the present.LikeLike
-
@Tiger. Interesting point, and thanks for reminding me about that.
My wife and I interpreted Question 5 the same way you did and left it blank on her original form, since like you she was born in the US. However, at the consulate the one question the vice-consul did ask her about her 4079 was to write into that space on Question 5 everywhere she’d lived outside the US since birth, which is only Canada so she penned that in front of him on her form, giving the years from date of landing in Canada to present, before signing it. No big deal, but he did want that filled in, not sure why. You would do the same, I guess, just show Canada from date of landing to present. Or do as we did and leave it blank and see if you’re asked to complete it.
You’re right, looking at the form again just now, it’s a rather strange interpretation of that question by the vice-consul, asking my wife to answer that question. Maybe even vice-consuls find these forms confusing, which perhaps is related to other discussions on this thread and IBS today regarding whether or not you have to give last US address in a relinquishment, I’m not sure the State Department officials are any clearer on that point than we are …
Now I think about it, just leave Question 5 blank in your case, but be prepared to insert the information in pen if the vice consul asks you about it.
Take comfort, perhaps, in the thought that US officials themselves find these forms and their interpretation rather confusing (especially given the absence of clear guidance in a relinquishment-specific chapter in their foreign affairs manual, which has one on renunciation but doesn’t seem to have one on relinquishment, which isn’t really addressed in the renunciation chapter.
And then there’s the 7200-plus-page-and-counting IRS tax code. Wanna take bets on how many IRS employees actually understand all that turgid prose, and share the same understanding of every page? Never mind poor US expats … or their overseas accountants.LikeLike
-
Just want to correct a typo, Schubert, you meant 72,000 … page … IRS code. Argh!
LikeLike
-
@Schubert
Good idea. I will leave Question 5 blank and see what unfolds at the consulate. If they do ask me to fill in those blanks, well, it is easy enough – I have lived in Canada since 1964 when I crossed the border and ‘landed’ at Windsor, Ontario.LikeLike
-
@Schubert, CDN, AnonAnon – Form 4080 “Oath/Affirmation of Renunciation of Nationality of United States” includes a line that starts: “That I formerly resided in the United States at: ”
This is where they insert your last address of residence in the US.
Also, in material sent to me from the Vancouver Consulate for my second renunciation appointment is a list of “Documentation required for Voluntary Relinquishment/Renunciation Cases” in which number 7. says: “You must know the last U.S. address (including zip code) you resided at.” This is the address shown on my Form 4080 noted above.
LikeLike
Maybe they want the last US address for police or FBI background checks. Who knows? They work in mysterious ways. This would all be funny if it weren’t so maddening. Some day I hope we will all be able to laugh and share a glass over it.
LikeLike
-
… preferably sharing a glass in front of a very large dart board festooned with photos of both the Secretary of State and Secretary of the Treasury, plus a photo of whatever official (if there is one) who is responsible for editing US government documents for clarity (what a concept … believe it or not, our Canada Revenue Agency actually employs English lit. grads for that purpose –or did until the Harperites started laying off federal scientists I hope not also the editors — , I happen to know one who worked in that job … wanna take bets on whether IRS has ever employed people for that ha ha ha ha ha ?)
If any of you ever hit Ottawa after getting your CLNs, let’s try to get in touch and meet at one of our nicer pubs over this for a few hours …LikeLike
-
and let’s add to the dartboard photos of our evil friends the Commissioner of the IRS and the US Ambassador to Canada who is in charge of the bullies in the embassy and who told everyone to “sit tight” and not to worry, back last October …
LikeLike
-
I stand corrected; if they do check voting records, then yes I guess they might want your last US address. Though if, as noted in one post, you moved to Canada at the age of 6 from your last US address, they can’t possibly believe you’d have voted from that address later, could they? (Maybe they could, this is the US of Paranoia after all. But what wingnut voter registrar is going to register someone to vote who hasn’t lived in the town since age 6? I thought the default voting address for overseas Americans is Wahsington DC if there’s any ambiguity or doubt where it should be … but maybe I read that incorrectly; it’s not something I care about for me or my wife so it’s off my radar. Also, I was a deputized voter registrar during one of the 1968 Primaries in the US, and I distinctly recall we couldn’t register anyone who hadn’t lived in the town for at least the last three months, that was State law. In fact I wasn’t able to vote in 1966 for exactly that reason, I’d moved from one state to another as a student about two months prior to the election and didn’t meet the residency requirement in either State.)
I can’t believe it would be a “deal-breaker” if you don’t remember the street address (never mind zip code) of your last US address 40 years ago. maybe the town would suffice. But as I say, this never came up in my wife’s interview. I suspect it’s something they’re more likely going to be concerned about in a recent, rather than decades-ago (like my wife’s), relinquishment.
Maybe for renunciation they want to contact the registrar in your last town of residence to make sure you never vote there again (as if you’d want to! never mind the residency requirement; maybe they want to get your name off the rolls, if it’s there, to make sure a “ghost” doesn’t show up under your name next election day, that sort of thing happens in certain cities and states in the US from time to time). However, please remember that Form 1080 is NOT for relinquishments and you shouldn’t complete it or swear that oath if you are relinquishing. A relinquishment is a claim you gave up, intended to give up, and believe you gave up, your USC years ago. How can you renounce something you don’t believe you have, and what does that do to your claim to have relinquished if you do sign 4080. While as I’ve noted elsewhere I don’t think refusing to sign 4081 is a good idea or a viable option, if I were relinquishing I absolutely would refuse to have anything to do with 4080. And again, my wife was never given 4080 during her interview nor was it ever mentioned in the interview.
LikeLike
Thanks for the input Schubert and Anon. Since I left as a young child, never voted, no ssn or passport I don’t see how my last address could be relevant. Isn’t a SSN required to vote? On another point, I do remember that a representative from the US consulate was present at my citizenship ceremony and technically, that should constitute knowledge of my relinquishment. Not sure how that would be of any benefit, since as far as I know, a CLN was never issued.
LikeLike
-
CDN, I don’t think you have anything to worry about. Imagine what a story it would make in the press if they went after someone like you, who left the US as a 6-year-old child in 1956!
LikeLike
@CDN: Thank You! I also recall someone from US Consulate being at my 1973 citizenship ceremony in Vancouver. No one else recalls this, so I thought maybe I had mistaken the Canadian official who witnessed my renunciation for an American official. I’m glad someone else remembers it.
Because you became a citizen in 1972, your Canadian citizenship oath should contain your signed renunciation oath. Was that in the information you received from CIC?
BTW, there were no zip codes in 1956. US zip codes did not come into being until 1963–seven years after you left US as a young child.
LikeLike
@Schubert: As I understand it, Washington DC is the default address for IRS purposes for US citizens living outside US–not for voting.
US citizens living overseas vote in their last state of residence. They register there and receive an absentee ballot at their out of country address. I have a friend who has lived in Canada for over 40 years, became a Canadian citizen about 10 years ago, but still has a US passport and votes in all US Presidential elections in her home state. That’s why Democrats Abroad and Republicans Abroad are so anxious to get folks registered–especially those whose last residence was in a key swing state.
LikeLike
@WhatAmI: I only now noticed your post with the link to your story at Brock.
Based on my understanding, I don’t think US would allow you to relinquish. I think you would have to renounce because you did not perform what US considers to be an expatriating act–ie. swear allegiance to another country.
I think Petros advice is good. Stay away from US. There is no reason for IRS go after you. If you go to Consulate, you could be putting yourself on the radar of DOS or IRS, especially because your only option to get a CLN would likely be to renounce rather than to relinquish.
LikeLike
Ladybug and Schubert, I won’t be signing a 4080 and maybe logic would dictate the that in relinquishment cases the address requirement is applied on a case by case basis. A 6-year-old has little background to check.
AnonAnon, I would hope that they wouldn’t come after someone like, but logic doesn’t always rule in this nightmare .
Blaze, yes it’s all a little fuzzy, but I was made aware of the American official’s presence before the ceremony. I don’t recall if I spoke to him or the citizenship judge alerted me to his presence. He was standing off to the side during the ceremony and was obvious because the group of new citizens was relatively small. Yes I have my signed renunciation as part of the package.
LikeLike
I will be leaving tomorrow morning to travel to US. I hope my border crossing goes as smoothly as the last two times. I will have only limited access to a computer when I go to the library in my mother’s small village (how archaic, I know!), but I will try to check in occasionally.
I will be away until around Thanksgiving or just after. For those of you who live in countries other than Canada, you may not know that Canadian Thanksgiving is the second Monday in October.
Cheers. I hope things will be resolved by the time I return. Well, I can dream, can’t I?
Tiger, I think your appointment at Vancouver Consulate is Friday. I will be thinking of you. Remember, they don’t let you take lipstick into the Vancouver Consulate. I think it’s OK if you wear it on your lips (as long as you’re not planning to kiss anyone!), but not in a tube. Good Luck.
LikeLike
I’ve been in Pennsylvania since last week. A smiling, cheery border guard asked a couple of quick questions and said “Have a good visit. Safe travel.” No comment about US place of birth.
I have now crossed three times (Peace Bridge, Fort Erie) since being told I should get a US passport with no further mention of it).
I will be in Pennsylvania until Canadian Thanksgiving, but I will check in occasionally. Cheers.
LikeLike
Quick update on my feisty friend whom I mentioned in my original post, the one who was “cautioned” at the border about crossing by car with a Canadian passport showing US birthplace. I mentioned that my friend observed the border guard making some entry in his computer during the 15-minute grilling, and that she had subsequently re-crossed by car without incident. Ran into her today; she told me that crossed again over Thanksgiving weekend, again by car, again showing her Cdn passport with US birthplace, again without incident.
So far these “cautioning” events seem to be sporadic and isolated cases of overzealous inidividual border guards who have a bee in their bonnet that day for whatever reason.
LikeLike
Thanks Schubert. That is my experience too. I was told once in 2004 I should always enter as US citizen. Not mentioned again until 2011 when I was told I should get US passport. I’ve crossed three times since with friendly, cheery border guards and no mention of need for US passport.
Hopefully, the experiences that have been reported here will help to ease some anxiety–and will keep us out of a nightmare like Calgary411’s.
LikeLike
@all
I will be crossing at Pearson Airport on Thursday afternoon. In addition to my passport, I will be carrying a copy of my Canadian citizenship oaths (including the renunciatory oath), a copy of the email notice re the consulate appointment when I applied for my CLN, a copy of an email from said consulate, informing me they had received my ‘pending documents’ and would be in touch re 2nd appointment.
Some might say “I am armed”!
Will report back on my return to Canada.
LikeLike
@Tiger: Have a fabulous trip.
The border has become a dangerous place. If this CTV story is true, the Canadian border guard who was shot in the neck yesterday was hit by accident. This says the suspect shot himself in the head. Then, the same bullet struck the border guard in the neck. http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/b-c-border-guard-struck-with-same-bullet-that-killed-shooter-1.999179
She is reported to be in stable condition. I certainly hope she recovers fully as CBC is reporting. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2012/10/17/bc-canada-border-officer-shot.html
LikeLike
This article contradicts what was said in the CTV story yesterday. This says the gunman aimed at the border guard before shooting himself. However it happened, it is horrible. I hope Lori Bowcock makes a full recovery.
http://www.lfpress.com/2012/10/16/guard-shot-at-us-canada-border-reports
LikeLike
Thanks so much for this forum. To the administrators, would it be possible to clean it up so that it sticks to the subject and hand (and remove duplicate reports). This is so helpful, I renounced almost 2 years ago, EU citizen, and do not dare fly back to see family (besides being totally disgusted). Perhaps if the reports here continue to be so good my family will be reunited again for a nice vacation one day.
LikeLike
-
@all
Just wanted to report that I crossed into the U.S. on October 18th at Pearson airport. It was possibly the easiest border crossing I have ever experienced. I was not even asked the usual question – “What is the purpose of your trip”. Border guard just scanned the passport and said “Have a nice day”. I was ‘armed’ with consulate emails, renunciatory oaths etc. but thankfully had no need for any of those things.LikeLike
Crossed Peace Bridge @Fort Erie yesterday. Easy as breeze. No comment about birthplace.
LikeLike
The purpose of this post is to advise everyone, and to reiterate an earlier post some months ago, that, at least in the case of my wife and me, crossing the US border with two CLNs is NOT an issue.
We drove across the US border at Cornwall ON/Massena NY last week (same day that Blaze crossed at Fort Erie) to visit family in the US for American Thanksgiving. My wife has had her relinquishment CLN approval for four months now; I’ve had mine for nearly 36 years. Plenty of time for State and Border Services to annotate both of us on their computer network. We were carrying photocopies of our CLNs, but we never needed to show them.
Border crossing was slow; everyone was being asked to open their trunks. Questioning as to where one was going, for how long, and why, was a bit more protracted than normal. Given past conversations I’ve had with people in Canadian border services, I know this usually is because the computer system is running slowly. They were quite obviously stalling for time while the computers could check passport and vehicle license numbers.
“Our” border guard had ample time to inspect our Canadian passports (both showing US birthplaces) in detail and at leisure. At no time was any mention made of our birthplaces, nor of our CLNs. Other than the slower crossing due to more leisurely questioning than normal, it was an uneventful border crossing.
LikeLike
My wife and I went to the US for their Thanksgiving. Crossed the border with absolutely no problem. The border guard was very pleasant and even commented about our “Going home for Thanksgiving” but in a totally friendly way – and he had our passports right in front of him.
Crossing the border is, for now anyway, a non-issue.
LikeLike
Even though there seem to be few problems reported about crossing the border with a non-US passport with US place of birth, it is still stressful for many of us. That has been compounded by long waits or delays at some of entry points and airports.
Here’s another possible complication. Wait times may become even longer due to sequestration and furloughs.
http://www.montrealgazette.com/business/border+delays+worsen/8032992/story.html
LikeLike
Just saw an interesting and, I think, important post on the Isaac Brock site by someone who has been with that site for some time. She renounced her US citizenship in February 2012, has a CLN, filed an 8854 with IRS in January 2013 (not a “covered expatriate” she says), and she IS on the 2013 First Quarter “name and shame” list that IRS published earlier this week on the US Federal Register. She mentions that since getting her renunciation CLN she’s crossed the US border three times on a Canadian passport showing she was born in the US, and she’s had absolutely no hassles, in fact she says the border guard the last time was very polite and friendly.
More evidence that, so far at least, border crossings for CLN holders are NOT a problem.
Thought anyone following this thread should know about this story, as it’s pretty compelling in my mind anyway.
LikeLike
Just stopping by to report crossing by car from BC to Washington state four or five times since I was granted Canadian citizenship mid December 2012. My brand new Canadian passport shows a US birthplace.
All crossings were pleasant and without incident. I do not yet have a CLN (in fact have been unable to even persuade the Vancouver consulate to give me an appointment to register my relinquishment). I still have a valid US passport but do not carry it with me and I’ve offered to mail it to Vancouver; they told me not to as they would simply send it back.
If it ever becomes an issue at the border my argument will be that with or without a CLN I am no longer a US citizen and using a US passport would not only be improper, it would negate my claim of intent to relinquish.
LikeLike
-
Hi Maz. I think your approach in the last paragraph is very astute and proper. Let us know if it ever comes to that, and what response you get if you invoke that approach.
I know a former US citizen who has been Canadian for decades, doesn’t consider herself an American, has no US passport, and has been challenged when crossing on a Canadian passport showing a US birthplace. She’s adamantly stuck to her guns that she’s not a USC she’s a Canadian and no way is she applying for a US passport. She has no CLN and last I heard has no intention of applying for one either, I think her approach is “it’s up to me to say whether I’m their citizen, not up to them, no way am I even asking them for a form” or along those lines. So far she keeps getting admitted for visits. If push comes to shove, I suspect she’ll just stop visiting. And God help any banker in Canada who tries to close her account over the FATCA issues, she’ll go screaming to the press and her lawyer and I suspect will likely make the banker wish he’d never been born …LikeLike
Thanks for sharing that Maz57. That’s great to know you have had no problems. That certainly seems to be the usual situation.
When the border guards have asked what is your citizenship, do you reply “Canadian.” That is what I have done for 40 years and what I will continue to do.
How frustrating that Vancouver will not give you an appointment. IRS considers the date of relinquishment the date you advise the Consulate. If they won’t let you advise the Consulate, that certainly complicates things, doesn’t it?
Have you considered going to another Consulate. I know others have found Vancouver difficult to deal with, but I thought it was getting better.
LikeLike
I notified the Vancouver consulate by email the afternoon of the day I became a Canadian. They replied to that email indicating they had received and read it. I have kept a record of that email correspondence and as far as I’m concerned they have been duly notified of my “expatriating act”. They have all the information they need and cannot argue otherwise.
I considered spending the time and money to travel to Calgary to get a CLN, but I believe it is totally unreasonable to force me to go to another province when there is a Consulate only thirty miles from where I live. The business I have at the Consulate could be done in ten minutes.
I filed a final FBAR because I was a US citizen for most of 2012. I didn’t file a 1040 because my income (mostly CPP and OAS) is not taxable in the US therefore putting me under the filing threshhold for MFS. After downloading and reading Form 8854 and it’s instructions I decided I would never file one of those because it’s essentially giving the IRS a shopping list. 8854 is the most offensive form I’ve seen in what we know is an IRS universe of offensive forms.
After trying for several years to become “compliant” I have concluded that it simply isn’t possible without prostrating oneself; I would lose my self-respect if I continued to try to be a good IRS sheep. I won’t be filing anything more with the US government, ever. ( No more mister nice guy, lol.)
LikeLike
Pearson airport 3 p.m. No line at US pre clearance! New baggage procedure for in transit from elsewhere in Canada appears to be working well. (You can check your bags right through and don’t have to claim them in T.O.)
No hassle -‘ where are you going? , how long will you be there? , have a nice trip’
LikeLike
-
@ Duke…..
Do you think it’s just possible that the people who work for DHS don’t like the IRS any more than we expats do?
Or is that too much to hope for?LikeLike
Has anyone had any issues traveling on their Cdn Passport in Miami when boarding a Criuse ship? I intend to apply for a CLN but probably will not have in hand by early 2014 when needed.
LikeLike
-
@ Milt….
Last time I was in Miami was in December 2010, and there were no issues.
The only time recently I had an issue was going through Houston a couple of years ago. When I told the guy that I am a cheapskate and didn’t want to incur travel and hotel bills to a faraway US Consul, when I could get my Canadian passport for $100 by mail, and when he realized that Canada was my destination, he waved me through.LikeLike
-
@Milt,
Schubert reports in the main post at the top of this thread, paragraph 2:
” … My wife had applied for a relinquishment CLN several months earlier. She is still waiting for it, but in the meantime, the vice-consul told her at the interview that her CLN application file is now on the State Department website and is accessible to DHS staff at the border, if there is any question about why she is crossing the border on a Canadian passport that shows a US birthplace. …”
Also if you are renouncing, there is a $450 fee payable at the consulate, and you get a receipt for it, indicating that renunciation occurred.LikeLike
We’re now just past the first anniversary of my starting this thread. I thought I’d update with the experiences (or non-experiences, more like) my wife and I had with two US border crossings this month. We both flew into the US via US pre-clearance in Toronto airport; aside from the long lines and the feeling of being herded like cattle, there was no problem even though the border officer examined both our passports (Canadian with US birthplaces) quite carefully and spent a fair bit of time typing something into his computer — but he was doing that with everyone ahead of us (I paid attention). No comments about our birthplaces. We both had copies of our relinquishment CLNs with us, but never needed to produce them. No problems getting through.
Same story, only better, with our auto crossing near Stanstead QC (AR55-I-91 into Vermont). I was a little nervous because there were no cars ahead of us or behind us in the line, and two border officers were shooting the breeze with ours as we pulled up. I figured they’d at least go through our trunk, since they obviously weren’t very busy. No. Border officer was polite, even friendly, cheerful, examined our passports and his computer screen carefully and stalled us for time for the computer to do its thing, then wished us a nice visit after handing back our passports. Again, no comments at all about our birthplaces, and again no need to show copies of our CLNs. No problem.
Maybe a renunciation CLN (if they make that distinction on their computer files) might have resulted in a different reaction, I wouldn’t know. But I can attest that for decades-ago relinquishments, crossing the border is not a problem for us (and never has been for either of us, even before my wife got her CLN, since we became Canadian citizens).
BTW at Toronto both of us got visa stamps on our passports, with inked-in expiry dates six months hence. No visa stamps were issued on the auto crossing into Vermont.
LikeLike
-
you got lucky / next time will be different and they will throw you and your lovely wife into jail
LikeLike
Good to hear, Schubert…
I’m visiting with my family right now, and so I asked my siblings and mother about their experiences crossing the border. My sister went to the US and back about a month ago, flying, and experienced no issues. However, interestingly, both she and my sister said they’d been questioned or hassled in the past, going back many years, about having a US birthplace on their Canadian passports. Both have been told several times (as have I) that being born in the US makes you a permanent US citizen. grrr. At least they didn’t have their passport thrown in their face, like I did at one border crossing a few years ago.
LikeLike
A young US person (who is a Canadian citizen) leaving Canada for US was recently advised by a US border official at Toronto airport that she needs to begin filing to IRS. Might be isolated incident or not. Sequence was something like this.
-She presents Canadian passport to US Border official at airport who asks “where were you born?”
-”I was born in US (but left at very young age and I live in Canada as Canadian Citizen.)”
-She is then informed that she needs US passport, which she does not have, to enter. Argument begins and supervisor brought in.
-In the course of the discussion she is asked whether she has been paying US taxes and responds “Why? I have lived in Canada since age…” and is then told that she needs to begin filing to IRS because she is a US person.
-Eventually she is allowed to enter US, but there is now a US border “file” associated with her (forwarded to IRS?) which could contain a statement that she was advised of IRS filing requirement.
[I originally posted this on IBS:
2011 Message for #americansabroad in Canada – how does it look two years later?
LikeLike
-
like I said you all are tax cheats here and should stay in Canada
LikeLike
Maple Sandbox Historical Archive – 2012 to 2016
About
A passionate baseball fan blog celebrating America's favorite pastime.
Maple Sandbox Historical Archive - 2012 to 2016 
Leave a reply to CDN Cancel reply