There is a bit of anxiety concerning what happens at the US border once you have a CLN or once you’ve applied for one. Or for that matter, if you have a Canadian passport that shows a US birthplace, have no US passport and don’t want one, and haven’t yet decided whether a CLN is a good idea for you. If you’re one of any of these concerned people, this post and thread are for you.
My wife and I just returned from a week-long family visit to the US. We travelled by air, crossing US customs and immigration at pre-clearance at Pearson Airport in Toronto. My wife had applied for a relinquishment CLN several months earlier. She is still waiting for it, but in the meantime, the vice-consul told her at the interview that her CLN application file is now on the State Department website and is accessible to DHS staff at the border, if there is any question about why she is crossing the border on a Canadian passport that shows a US birthplace. (If you have a CLN or have applied for one, there is no way you can possibly have a US passport. If you had one before applying for the CLN, you are required to surrender it during the application process. Once you’ve sworn either the relinquishment or renunciation oath, you cannot be issued a US passport. So it would be absurd for a border guard to insist that you present a US passport at the border.)
Both of us have Canadian passports with US birthplaces. I have a CLN that was issued to me in 1976, based on my relinquishment upon becoming a Canadian in 1975. I would assume, in fact I would hope, that my CLN is flagged on the DOS and DHS computer systems; I’d be disappointed if it weren’t. But, I’m not going to ask a border guard or any other US official if it is. I don’t believe in kicking sleeping bears; such behaviour tends to be bad for the health.
Our border crossing last week was our first crossing since my wife applied for her CLN, so we were a little nervous, on her account (I always carry a photocopy of my CLN with my passport when I travel). Needlessly, as it turned out.
The pre-clearance area at Pearson wasn’t very busy; we were referred to an agent almost immediately after we arrived in the area. The agent examined both our passports, then scanned both of them into his computer. He examined the computer screen. He asked us how long we would be visiting the US, the purpose of the visit, and the usual questions about what we were bringing into the US (no tobacco, no alcohol) and the value of any gifts we’d be leaving behind in the US. He then entry-visa-stamped both our passports, initialed the visa stamps, and wished us a nice trip. No questions about citizenship, about why no US passport, about CLNs, nor any reference to the T word. He didn’t need to ask where we were staying; I had to give the hotel name, address and phone number to the airline when getting the boarding passes (which information I believe is now routinely shared between the US and Canada and probably many other countries), and also had to give that information on the US customs declaration form. No ogres awaited us as we got off the plane in the US. At no time during our week-long stay at the hotel were we ever contacted by any official of any level of US government. Our return to Canada was uneventful.
So, at least in our case, two Canadians born in the US, both of whom have relinquished their US citizenship, crossed the border together on their Canadian passports in mid-August 2012 without incident.
What if you have a Canadian passport that shows a US birthplace, don’t have a US passport and don’t want one because you don’t consider yourself a US citizen, and want to cross the US border? Stories here are mixed. My wife was in those shoes until a few months ago. She’s been across the US border for decades on her Canadian passport with US birthplace and has never once been “cautioned” or “warned” that she “has” to have a US passport to go back. But we have two friends who have been cautioned. Both our friends want to keep crossing the US border, because they both have adult children and now grandchildren living in the US, whom they want to visit. One has decided he wants to remain a dual US-Canada citizen, got a US passport, and spent thousands of dollars to become compliant with IRS demands (he hadn’t filed any US tax forms since becoming a Canadian). The other friend has absolutely no desire or intention ever to get a US passport, never has had one, also hasn’t filed US tax forms since becoming a Canadian more than 30 years ago, and has been “warned” when crossing by land (never, so far, during air crossings). Each time she has been warned, she smiled calmly and said essentially “I’m a Canadian, I’m not an American, this is my passport, and I want to cross on it.” She’s had her name entered at least once in the US border computers over this, has then been let in, and has subsequently gone back across without any further problems, at least not yet.
The lawyer my wife and I consulted in my wife’s case has a client who so far has been “warned” four times and still crosses; the warnings have delayed his border crossings, but he still gets in. As far as we can tell, so far these “warnings” seem to be random, at the whim of the particular border officer, and don’t (yet) have any serious consequences. But that could always change.
On the subject of visa stamps: since August 2011, my wife and I have crossed the US border five times on various family visits, twice by car (in Vermont) and three times by air (twice at Pearson and once clearing US immigration in Newark NJ). All three air crossings netted us US entry visa stamps on our passports (as a matter of what seems to be routine now at the airports; we didn’t ask for the visa stamps nor did we need to); none of the car crossings resulted in visa stamps (we presented our passports at both those crossings). Thanks to the air crossings, we now both can prove beyond any doubt that we’ve been admitted to the US carrying Canadian passports that show US birthplaces. Our feisty friend who keeps crossing in spite of warnings on land has also acquired a collection of US visa stamps in her Canadian passport, when she flies into the US.
Things can always change at the border. Lightning can strike at any time in the future. An incoming asteroid could destroy life or civilization as we know it on Earth. So far, however, the sky is not falling. We will enjoy what’s left of the summer, and we look forward to the maple leaves turning this Fall. We’ll be vigilant and prepared when we cross the border, but we aren’t losing any sleep over the issue of our passports and citizenships, at least not yet (if ever).
I invite other US-borns living in Canada (or elsewhere outside the US) who have Canadian (or other) passports showing a US birthplace, and who do not have a US passport, whether they have a CLN, have applied for one, or haven’t applied for one, to share their border-crossing experiences on this thread in the coming months, especially if anything disturbing happens. When you report your experience, please identify whether you have or have applied for a CLN (and if so, whether it was a renunciation or relinquishment), or not, and also indicate whether your experience was at an airport or at a land crossing. If you feel comfortable doing so, also indicate which airport or border crossing was involved.
I hope this thread can serve both to provide some comfort level (for as long as that’s appropriate) and, as needed, an early-warning system for things that may come, and perhaps some ammunition to use to try to nudge our government to take issue with the US over this if things start to get out of hand. (Remember Blaine Washington …)
PS I just edited the title of the thread, which originally read “Canadian passport” instead of “non-US passport.” Sorry for the Canada-centric tendencies; I am Canadian and that’s my perspective, but I recognize and respect that there are lots of US expats/former USPs (to use Johnnb’s point which I also have raised elsewhere) who live in countries other than Canada and who share some of these concerns. Not sure whether people entering the US from, for example, Switzerland (to pick a country which raises some hackles in parts of US officialdom these days) will get treated differently from people crossing from Canada. In theory everyone should be handled the same way, but we all know that there’s always a big gap between theory and practice. If you reply to this thread with border-crossing examples, please indicate from what country you were coming into the US if it wasn’t Canada and if you think that may have made a difference to your treatment.
Crossing the US Border on a non-US passport showing a US birthplace
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269 responses to “Crossing the US Border on a non-US passport showing a US birthplace”
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I think that is the first report here of someone being asked about taxes when entering U.S.
Do you know this young woman? Would she be willing to share with us directly?LikeLike
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if I were a border guard I would tear you out of the car and put you into jail.
You all are criminals here , tax cheats / human garbageLikeLike
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@anon: Thank you for your comment. your impeccably reasoned arguments presented with such clarity show a real grasp of the issues surrounding citizenship based taxation vs. residency based taxation. Coupled with your knowledge of the impact of foreign bank account reports and the foreign account tax compliance act a clearer picture of the issues is now available.
Perhaps you could now turn your attention to the subtleties of relinquishing vs. renunciation of citizenship. I’m sure we would all benefit from your profound insights.
I am certain your middle school and mother are both very proud of you.LikeLike
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Yikes! Johnnb I hadn’t seen AnonAnon comment until you posted your reply.
His or her attitude is a good reason why he or she is not working as a border guard.
Thank you John for your calm, polite and measured response.
We all know we are not tax cheats. I won’t have the debate with “human garbage.”LikeLike
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Troll….
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I crossed the Peace Bridge (Fort Erie-Buffalo) today.
No problems. Friendly border guard. Only one question–anything to declare. No questions about where I was going, purpose of trip or how long I was staying.
He looked at my Canadian passport with US place of birth, then looked at the computer. I was expecting him to remind me that I was told two years ago to get a US passport. He didn’t.
Instead, he stated “You were born in Warren Pennsylvania. I replied “Yes.” He said “Wow.” Then, he waved me ahead.
I found that bizarre because my passport doesn’t give a state, just Warren USA. There are better known Warrens in Michigan and Ohio.
Before I suspect NSA, I know I have said Warren Pennsylvania in the past when asked where I was born, but that was many years ago before passports were required.be Maybe it’s in their data base from when I had a Nexus card or from some other time.
I have no idea why he said “Wow” about Warren Pennsylvania. It’s just an average American economicaly depressed town in the foothills of the Allegheny Mountains.
I’m not going to do any Tea Leaf reading into it, but the Wow comment has me curious.
I will only be checking in occassionally over the next week. Time with my 90 year old mother will be my focus.LikeLike
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Thanks for the report on your border crossing. Wow???
I hope you’re able to savour every moment of the visit with your mom as you help in her care.
Take care, Blaze.LikeLike
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A border crossing from Hell
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/niels-gerson-lohman/us-border-crossing_b_4098130.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular
Some of the comments refer to Canadians crossing into the U.S.LikeLike
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WOW, that’s some story! Poor guy.
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None of this surprises me. The Americans have taken a total leave of their senses. Their government is infested with idiots at all levels.
Having said that, I crossed the border into the US last week in transit to South America to a connecting flight in Miami. I travelled that route reluctantly, but I was flying on points and that was the way I was routed.
Fortunately I had no serious problems. The pre-clearance customs official noted my US birthplace, and asked why I was not travelling on a US passport. I told him that I had lived in Canada since 1949, that Canada was my destination upon return, that travel costs to a US consul were too high to undertake the process, and that I had renounced in any case. So for me, not only was a US passport an unnecessary document, I was no longer eligible to have one anyway.
He then asked my business in South America. I told him I am a snow bird who flies farther south than Canucks who go the Florida. Then he spoke to me in Spanish (he was originally from a Central American country), which I promptly answered in Spanish. I suppose he was testing me to see if I was some sort of phony. I showed him my date stamps from the winter before. I also told him (in Spanish) that health care was so prohibitively costly in the United States that said country could never possibly be a destination for me again.
I also encouraged him to never abandon the citizenship of his Central American homeland because he might actually need it some day. I told him that my Canadian passport was a better one to have anyway, and encouraged him to get one if he ever has the chance.
He mentioned taxes. I told him that I was compliant in my filings and that because of Canada’s higher taxes, I never had to pay in the States anyway.
The entire exchange was cordial. He then wished me a pleasant flight.
I think their customs people are getting used to handling people whose circumstances are similar to ours.LikeLike
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@Arctic: I surprised he asked about taxes. It’s not unheard of, but it doesn’t seem to be common.
It was great you were able to converse with him in Spanish.
There are some reports of bully border guards (like the ones in Hazy’s article), but most reports here are of polite or friendly ones.
Enjoy the winter in a southern climate more welcoming than the U.S.!LikeLike
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I mentioned in an earlier posting that the United States could never, under any circumstances, be a travel destination for me again. That country can be a transit point (which I do reluctantly), but it cannot be a destination.
The reason is simple: health care costs. If something serious happens, the financial consequences could be ruinous. There are other reasons too. They can take their crime-ridden cities, their interracial violent crime (mostly black on non-black), their paranoid banking and taxation laws, their appalling ignorance (50% of Detroit functionally illiterate…….the Chairman of their School Board an illiterate too), their arrogant attitudes to anything non-American, the crappy service I have experienced on their airlines, etc., etc., etc., and stick it all where the sun doesn’t shine. They are devolving (some would say “have devolved”) into third world status. I don’t want anything to do with them as a country.
I have suggested to some Americans with whom I have spoken, that with what they have for leadership now, they would be better off if, in 1776, they had remained loyal to King George III. People have responded with laughs, chuckles, and even handshakes.
I do see many of them in my travels, and I find most of those friendly and easy to get along with. Americans who travel on business generally seem to have more of a clue about the world than those who don’t. I was in Bogota airport on the weekend, and as I was recharging my iPhone, a man came up to me and spoke to me in English asking if the outlet was available. We then chatted. He was in the aviation consulting business. I asked him if he realized that if he were a candidate for a senior level signing-authority position job like that in Colombia, he would not likely get the job, for no other reason than his passport is American. He was incredulous. I then launched a tirade as to how much I hated the buffoon anointed by the press in the White House (the teleprompter and chief). He smiled throughout my torrent of invective. I told him my story. Like most Americans who live in the States, he had no idea. When we parted, he shook my hand.
Back to being a snowbird. Are not more Canadians and other foreigners cluing into the notion that the United States is not a good place? I seem to remember a mention in this forum of some European snow birds who, because of the “substantial presence rule”, have stopped going to the States. For me, the United States is a non-starter. In Colombia, I have a beautiful apartment, 2 cell phones, power, internet, and water in a rural setting for about $300 per month. A visit to the doctor at the local hospital costs me about $9. They check my blood pressure whenever I want (gratis). Lab costs are about $3.50 in the event I have stomach problems (very common here, even among locals…………that is just the way life is in the tropics). My dental X-Ray cost $3.50. I am having two dental implants, and have had all my mercury amalgam fillings replaced with porcelain fillings. Total cost……..about $5,000.
For something very major, we insure ourselves here with something called the ASSIST CARD. That costs us about $2200 for 6 months (covers both of us). That is more expensive than the RBC insurance we had before, but with the ASSIST CARD, we don’t need to go through the hoops that we had to go through with RBC. Making a claim with them is cumbersome and time consuming. We just show the ASSIST CARD, and everything is covered.
The cities here are surprisingly safe. They are most definitely a huge cut above the degenerate inner cities of the United States.
I speak Spanish. Can anyone explain why, in my right mind, I would winter in Florida or Arizona? Other than the convenience of being able to speak English, I cannot think of any earthly reason why anyone would. There are large foreign communities here in the Coffee Triangle, and in cities in other countries like San Miguel in Mexico, where English is widely spoken, and where we are much less likely to be robbed, mugged, or shot. The United States of Arrogance simply does not cut the mustard as a snowbird destination.
Finally, here we don’t have to listen to a compliant and biased press that genuflects every time that scumbag who signed FATCA into law appears on a TV screen.LikeLike
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If you live in Ontario, I was told you can obtain an enhanced driver’s licence, which states your citizenship, but does not state your birthplace. These are adequate for crossing the border by land, but not by air. Seems that it’s the land crossings that have been most problematic for people, so if you live in Ontario, perhaps its something to consider. Most other provinces don’t have that option, unfortunately.
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Thanks for posting that Gwen. As the comments here show, most people are not having a problem crossing on a Canadian passport showing a U.S. place of birth.
An enhanced driver’s license may help, but it’s very likely the border guard would still ask where you were born.
I asked about having a passport issued without my place of birth several years ago before FATCA. I was told Canada can do that, but there are 16 countries that will not admit anyone with a passport that does not give a place of birth. Then she grimaced and said “United States is one of them.” Because I still need to travel to U.S. to visit my elderly mother, that was not an option for me. I did not ask what the other 15 countries are.LikeLike
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For the record, my wife and I crossed by car into the US last Tuesday on a six-day trip for US Thanksgiving with my in-laws. Crossing the border at Cornwall/Massena was a non-event, in fact I think it was the fastest and most efficient crossing yet. Only a car or two ahead in the queue, perfunctory questioning just long enough for the car-license reader and the passport scanner to register our details and check the data bases. We showed Canadian passports with US birthplaces, had copies of our relinquishment CLNs with us but never needed to show them. No comments at all about US birthplace. It took longer coming back, due to traffic queues at the end of I-89, but once at the Canadian Border Services wicket we were processed just as fast. Going over the Champlain Bridge at Montreal, traffic closed to one lane in each direction due to emergency replairs arising from that big crack they discovered in the bridge, was another story …
Boston Globe column about Diane Francis’ book treated it tongue-in-cheek, saying that about once every 20 years someone resurrects the idea of merging the two countries, here’s another one. Also mentioned Harper’s book on the history of hockey, saying it proves that being PM of Canada “is almost a full-time job.” Ouch. Maybe Harper really wasn’t paying attention to what was going on in the PMO, he was delegating and spending too much time playing with his hockey history? Interesting alternative interpretation of events, I guess.LikeLike
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Here is a story about an American ex-military guy crossing the Canadian border, and then re-entering the United States on the same day.
http://www.copblock.org/41530/handcuffed-at-usa-border-coming-back-from-canada-on-saturday-drive-treated-like-terrorist-fingerprints-werent-mine/LikeLike
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DHS at Vancouver airport now easier then ever.. You scan your passport into a touchscreen computer yourself, answer the usual questions-been on a farm?, got more than 10k? Etc. on the touchscreen and hand a copy to the guy who says ” thanks” and that’s it. You can even press 1 key that picks ‘no’ to all the questions. 20 minutes from curb to departure gate. No mention of birth place. Painless.
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We crossed at Peace Bridge (Fort Erie-Buffalo) today. Canadian passports scanned. My friend’s place of birth is Canada. Mine is US.
Polite young female guard: Purpose of your trip?
Bob: A funeral.
Guard: Condolences. Have a safe trip.LikeLike
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great news. I must admit I have a low-grade worry for when I have to go to the US in mid-March. This helps.
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I was born to Canadian parents in Washington, DC. My dad was studying for his PhD and we returned to Canada when I was just one year old. I didn’t even realize I had dual citizenship until I was in my 30’s. I have never lived, worked or voted in the US. I have been filing my tax returns and FBARs for the past 5 years but am thinking about renouncing my US citizenship. Do you know how long the process takes? I understand the process with the US Embassy but what is involved with the IRS? Thanks in advance.
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@J.C. the length of the process partly depends upon where you live and which embassy you go to – and the backlog that the DOS is dealing with. I believe that you will need to show that you are up to date on your tax filings. There are others here who have been through the process and who will be able to talk to this much more eloquently than I can, and I’m sure some will pop in to offer guidance. I know it can take quite a while – there’s a lot of waiting time.
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JC . You have been filing so you are golden. Once you renounce, you file an 8854 stating that you are tax compliant for 5 yrs. and that your net worth is less than 2 mill. That and a final 1040 for the yr. you renounce and you are a free man.
You do not have to be tax compliant in order to renounce. If you are that’s a huge bonus.LikeLike
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@JC……..
Like water off a duck’s back. I renounced and then became compliant. The renunciation process was actually expedited by the Toronto Consul. They moved us all to the front of the line. I did mine September 16. I mailed in my 5 years of 1040’s and my 6 years of FBAR’s later that day. I owed nothing. I also have lots of unused credits.
Too bad you have waited until the New Year. It means you will have to file a 2014 Form 1040 as well. My 2013 Form 1040 along with the FBAR will be my last.
My advice? Get it done. Totally ridiculous that we have to go to such lengths and expense to prove that we are Canadian and to prove that we owe those arrogant tyrants nothing.
After all is said and done, I am going to mail Obama an invoice for my time and trouble. I will tell him I won’t demand payment if he files 6 years of FBAR’s to Kenya.LikeLike
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I was born in the US but have never ever lived there. Dual citizenship oh what fun. I am Canadian and pay my taxes annually to the Canadian Gov’t. Can anyone tell me what the advantages / disadvantages would be keeping the US Citizenship?
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@Unbelievable. Oh boy, that’s a loaded question.Advantages? Well, I think you could quite easily go down and work in the US, maybe? I actually don’t really know since I’ve only ever considered myself Canadian since the age of 6, and have never considered living or working in the US. Disadvantages- please check out the post at the top called ‘Have you must learned that the US considers you a US person?’ Primarily the disadvantages, IMHO, are having to spend large amounts of money in filing tax returns (and back tax returns), reporting on your private financial accounts (and those of your spouse if you have one), not being able to have signing authority on charity or business accounts unless you want to share the details with the IRS, and running the risk of incurring huge penalties for not having filed reports (FBARs) on your bank accounts before now.
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Other big disadvantages of being a ‘ tax compliant’ US person living in Canada include:
RESPs, TFSA’S, and Canadian mutual funds are actually handicaps rather than advantages.
You will be double taxed on unearned income (i.e. pensions, RRIFS, unemployment insurance benefits, disability income, investment income, capital gains from the sale of your home ), etc.
Your spouse may not want your name on any of her/his accounts because then they become FATCA and FBAR reportable accounts.
All accounts with your name on them become FATCA and FBAR reportable; even having power of attorney on an account makes it reportable.LikeLike
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Hm, think we need a Phil Hogan or a Steven Mopsick to come up with some advantages. We’re not having much luck in coming up with any 🙂
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Here is all the reason we need to sidestep the United States of Arrogance as anything more than a transit point.
Health care costs make that country a non-starter as a tourist destination.
An $89,000 hospital bill for an 18 hour stay after a snake bite in North Carolina.
http://news.yahoo.com/snake-bite-89000-162515519.htmlLikeLike
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I flew into Philadelphia International Airport for the first time post-renunciation yesterday afternoon. It was very quiet as it was a Monday and early February is a not busy there. The man at the checkpoint fingerprinted me on both hands and took a photo. His first question was where was I born; when telling him a US city, he looked at my British passport and asked why I wasn’t using a US passport; upon telling him that I’d renounced, he paused and looked taken aback and then asked if I had any documents to prove it; upon showing him my photocopied CLN, he explained that they’d have to briefly question me in another room while they verified everything.
I was quite nervous, but he was polite at least; I had to take my passport to this other room and sit for about a half hour after which I was called up to the desk and the woman asked me quite bluntly why I’d renounced. She seemed incredulous.
Even when I renounced I wasn’t asked this question directly!! I just said that I was trying to reduce the complexities in my life and that I’d been married to a British man and living in the UK for over 25 years. She seemed to accept this and said something along the lines of ‘well, I suppose we also make you pay taxes over there…’. I honestly told her that it wasn’t the tax so much as the huge ongoing accounting fees. She just then let me go but reminded me that I can never live nor work in the US again.
In a way I’m glad this happened to me because I am no longer so frightened of the process but could imagine that had I come over in high summer that I might have been forced to wait several hours if they’d been questioning lots more people. It’s also possible that they might question fewer people if they were processing loads of arrivals though. They also both asked me what I do for a living.LikeLike
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monalisa,
Of all persons to be reporting of this happening to you!
But, as you say, I too am glad that you went through this process and see that you were able to answer the questions in the uncomfortable atmosphere. We just need to be prepared in how we will answer such questions and not offer any ‘editorial comment’ (as a boss once told me he didn’t want!). How strong you have become!
Bravo, monalisa, you handled it well. Enjoy every minute of your visit.LikeLike
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Many thanks, @Calgary!! 🙂 I suppose my biggest fear going forward is no longer the IRS but, instead, potential difficulties crossing the border on future visits if they decided to enforce the Reed Act or pass the Ex-Patriot Act. However, I believe they already realize that the vast majority of recent renunciations have been due to FATCA and CBT compliance burdens. My distinct impression was that they probably won’t bother minnow ex-citizens too much but that we’re not much above amoeba in their eyes. I am aware that I am definitely an ALIEN now.
Another I observed in that room was that they were in the process of departing a couple of musicians and could overhear them explaining that they would be detained there but placed on the next available flight out of the US. I believe they were visa waiver visitors who’d overstayed. I realize now that the very worst thing they could realistically do is not allow me in and place me on a return flight.
It will be interesting to see if we remain a curiosity or if the amounts surge in the coming years whether they’ll continue to be civil or start harassing visiting ex-citizens.
I also get the impression that they’re more used to encountering renunciants on the Canadian border. I suspect that they haven’t encountered many CLNs at Philadelphia!LikeLike
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Whoa. Two huge issues.
First, since when is it common practice for people with no indication of criminal activity to be fingerprinted and photographed on arrival at a US airport on an international flight from a US-friendly country?
Second, I’m sorry you were subjected to this questioning even if it was polite. Is that likely to be the standard treatment (or worse) for anyone entering US with a CLN in airports in the future?
Thanks for sharing Monalisa. I know what a wrenching decision renouncing was for you. It’s sad this experience probably added to your pain.
Enjoy your time with your family.LikeLike
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@Mona Lisa, I visited the US not long ago, on a Canadian passport, for family reasons, and they made no comment on my US birthplace or ex-citizenship, and didn’t ask for a CLN – but it was from Canada, and also not via air. I don’t know if those variables make any difference, or just the ill/luck of the draw.
Sorry to hear of your experience.
Perhaps it will inspire your US family to see how this is all an unnecessary diversion from what is supposed to be the central purpose of border security. If they’re diverted and preoccupied wasting time and resources on ordinary people who UPFRONT show and tell that they are NOT US citizens, and have a CLN to boot, then that is staffing and resources not being spent on people they are supposed to be truly concerned about.
And if they start doing that to those visiting US family, I would hope that those US resident relatives would start complaining – about the deprivation they as US citizens are experiencing if their law abiding family members are being kept from stateside visits and succour . What might appear to be solely inconvenience or a bad experience for those ex-citizens seeking to visit also DEPRIVES the US citizen residents who they have come to see. At some point will US citizen residents start balking at the exclusion or barriers erected which may keep family from abroad who are visiting them to provide help, comfort, etc.?
And Canadians are going to curtail those casual crossborder shopping, tourism visits if one or more renunciant members will make any crossborder visits en masse unpredictable or unpleasant. I wouldn’t subject a visit with children or friends and other family members to an unpredictable border experience that could get ugly if US border agents feel like swaggering around like Rambo. US border agents are already seeking to be exempted from adhering to Canadian laws on Canadian soil due to US Canada border security harmonization initiativeshttp://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/u-s-wants-cross-border-officers-exempt-from-canadian-law-1.1359107
Canada is a big country. We don’t have to visit the US. And currently our dollar is down vs. the US$ – so US border states will see less of us anyway.
And a FATCA IGA will definitely discourage friendly feelings about spending money or visiting in the US.LikeLike
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@ Blaze,
Fingerprinting/photographing aliens entering the US is a routine policy started sometime in the 2000s. Canadians are exempt from it (maybe this exemption comes from the WHTI — don’t know). I recall when the US started doing it, it was on the news that Brasil retaliated by fingerprinting only Americans entering Brasil and the Americans were upset about it. Sounded like turn about is fair play to me. (Don’t know if Brasil still does it or if they gave in to American pressure to stop. I hope not.)LikeLike
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@Pacifica: Yikes! WTF?!?
Our high school exchange student was from Boliva. Fast forward 46 years. She lives in Sweden with her Swedish husband where she is a Swedish citizen.
She is a physician. He is an executive. They own homes in Spain and Sweden. They have traveled extensively around the world. He speaks eight languages fluently. She speaks four.
A few years ago, they visited her host “sisters” in Pennsylvania. It was his first visit to U.S. and her first back in over four decades. I spent some time with them when we were both there at the same time. They said their treatment by US border officials in Detroit was horrendous. It was the wost they ever experienced anywhere.
They said they will never return to United States again. I have invited them to Canada. They have invited me to Sweden.
Is this really the way Congress wants tourists to be treated? Oh wait, it was Congress who gave us FATCA.LikeLike
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@ Blaze,
Here’s some info about fingerprinting/photographing aliens entering the US.
US Embassy, Ottawa. http://canada.usembassy.gov/visas/forms-and-programs/us-visit.html
DHS’ page on Biometric Identity Management
http://www.dhs.gov/obim-enrollment-requirements
Also from DHS. Office of Biometric Identity Management Biometric Procedures: Applicability to Canadian Citizens
http://www.dhs.gov/obim-biometric-procedures-applicability-canadian-citizensLikeLike
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Sweeden has signed an IGA and I have seen at Issac Brock they plan to enforce US tax laws even for Green Card holder,
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@Mona Lisa, holy cow, I can’t believe that. It sounds like you handled with grace and aplomb, but you shouldn’t have had to ‘handle’ it at all. Well, I have to go to the US in about a week and a half. I’ll certainly report on my experience, bad, good or neutral. I would NOT like having my fingerprints taken, but I have to say that I wouldn’t make a stink about it. At least not until I’m back on home soil in Canada.
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@To all, I really appreciate all the empathy and supportive comments. I believe that more and more former citizens will be questioned more closely when attempting to cross, especially those with US birthplaces. I thus feel somewhat resigned to having to put up with this (and the fingerprints, photos, requests for CLN, etc.) It just goes with the territory.
However, now that I’m in Delaware and among family, I feel completely safe. People here are good and friendly. It’s just those damn borders. I’m determined to not let it get me down or put me off continuing to make future visits to see family or old childhood haunts.
I feel quite embittered that, as collateral damage, I’ve had to become exiled from my homeland. It’s just not right. I am still certain that I made a wise decision though it really was a Sophie’s Choice. It’s emotional torture. Part of me will also always regret it and wonder if I renounced in haste though realized that the stakes were too high to risk putting it off. It shouldn’t have to be this way, all these ultimatums…
Anyhow, the point is that I’m determined not to let all this ruin my life. It’s just officialdon and bureaucracy. In some ways, I’m already used to it, living in the UK. They too have become an Orwellian society. The way I see it, what I did was an act of self-defense.
I feel similarly about governments’ often draconian view towards recreational drug users. I feel that governments can be predatory and persecute those whom they lable as misfits.
I have grown wary though It shouldn’t have to be this way…but I’m not going to let a bit of rough treatment stop me from visiting family because it would be even more of a victory for Voldemort if I did; I have to be thick-skinned and not take it personally.LikeLike
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When I told the friend whose husband first alerted me to FATCA about Carl Levin’s demands that our FATCA information be available to US law security and national security agencies for investigation of drug trafficking, terrorist financing, corruption, fraud and other crimes, first a look of horror came across her face. Then she said “What a paranoid country.”
When I told family or friends in the US about FATCA, the response was often “Why do we wonder why everyone hates us so much?”
I am horrified that all non-US citizens (except Canadians) must be fingerprinted and photographed on arrival. How many other countries do this?
Monalisa, I’m glad you can put it aside and enjoy time with your family. It personally makes me even more determined not to visit the US now that my mother is no longer alive.LikeLike
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The ignorance and arrogance of some Americans is mind-boggling. On a recent a cruise, one American woman suggested that the IRS had the right to know the business of foreign residents if said foreign residents worked the the foreign subsidiary of an American company.
So I suggested the following to her.
(1) All American employees of banks owned by TD should report to Revenue Canada. Remember, TD, Sun Life, and other Canadian companies have a big presence in the States.
(2) Obama should file a tax return and an FBAR to Kenya.
She didn’t like those ideas.
I am really coming to dislike a lot of them.LikeLike
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Well, I’m in my hotel room in the U.S. I flew out of Calgary this afternoon. Nary a word was said regarding my birthplace on my passport. Only question was business or pleasure?… have a nice visit, ma’am.
All that angst, anxiety and dread – all for nought. This was actually the easiest border crossing I’ve ever had!LikeLike
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I’m glad to hear it went well Outraged. I didn’t think you would have any problems, but I knew you were worried.
Did you do clearance in Calgary or did you do it on arrival at a U.S. airport?LikeLike
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Hi Blaze, it was in Calgary. Like most people, he smiled when he found out I was going to Vegas for a conference. Really, it’s work! Honest!
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Sure, sure — that’s what you told me too, my fellow Calgary protester.
So glad you did go on that work-related trip to Las Vegas and that it was all a piece of cake — hope the work-related stuff was too.
I thought of you as I’m listening to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCu7HELGPy0 — it calms my laid-back pooch even more and having her plus this helps me read what we continue to read and comment on.LikeLike
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Here’s a twist we didn’t expect. We’ve all focused on crossing into the US.
Today, on returning to Canada from the U.S., IRSCompliantForever (a dual Canadian-US citizen) was required by Air Canada to show his US passport before he could board his flight.
Yes, you read that correctly. A Canadian citizen returning to his home in Canada on Canada’s national airline was required to show his American passport before he was permitted to board.
I have his consent to post some of the details in his own words:I entered the US using a US passport because I had no choice (I am a US person).
At the Air Canada desk in Seattle, for boarding the plane to Toronto, I showed a Canadian passport, because I am a Canadian citizen and it is reasonable for Canadian citizens to use a Canadian passport to return to Canada (!).
The attendant refused to accept the Canadian passport because I used a US one to enter the country. I explained “But I am a Canadian!” but to no effect.
I didn’t want to hold up the line (which was very long) and just gave in and showed my U.S. passport, and told the attendant that Air Canada needs to change its behaviour. You can imagine the mood I was in–and on a Canadian ! airline.With each passing day, the world gets more bizarre.
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Hopefully, they have not heard the last from IRSCompliantForever (a dual Canadian / US citizen).
http://canada.usembassy.gov/traveling_to_canada/entering-canada.html
quote:
Dual Citizens
If you are a dual U.S.-Canadian citizen you should always present yourself as a Canadian citizen when entering Canada and as a U.S. citizen when entering the United States. For more information, please visit our page on dual citizenship.
unquoteLikeLike
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the US requires citizens to use a US passport when leaving and entering .
the use of a US passport was probably entered into the Air Canada database when purchased or boarded your flight. It is not a problem when traveling by land because you are already at customs when you first need to show a passpoetLikeLike
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Hi, I am US born (moved when I was one to Canada, never lived in the US since). I am in the process of complying but I will need to go to the US to obtain my social security number before I’m able to file taxes to IRS.
I have a question regarding relinquishment/renunciations. I read articles that intertangle the two meanings to the point, I’m not sure what criteria needs to be met before application for either.
I’ve done a lot of research and I’m unable to find this answer so I will ask point blank:
What do I need in advance to relinquish my US citizenship?
Ideally, I would like to get this started ASAP regardless of taxes, but I’ve heard two different things: you need to have 5 years taxes before RELINQUISHMENT and that you do not need to have 5 years taxes…I’m confused. Any help would be great.LikeLike
Maple Sandbox Historical Archive – 2012 to 2016
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A passionate baseball fan blog celebrating America's favorite pastime.
Maple Sandbox Historical Archive - 2012 to 2016 
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