February 6, 2014 Update: Yesterday, Finance Canada announced an IGA with the United States that may change some of the information presented here.  We will update as more information becomes available and we better understand what it may mean.

Perhaps you’ve just read one of the sensationalist IRS-propaganda articles in the media that says every person born on US soil is a US citizen and must file income tax reports to the US, and are at risk for huge penalties. Perhaps you heard about this situation through another person who has a US connection. Either way, you’re probably confused about what this means and what you need to do about it. We’re going to offer some advice, but keep in mind that we are not lawyers, and none of this is legal advice, it is simply a sharing of information that we’ve gathered over time that we hope will help people make sense of things.

The following information is Canada-centric, as that is what we know. We don’t mean to exclude anyone, but necessarily, people from other countries must check their particular countries laws, tax treaties and positions on FATCA. We’ve tried to keep this simple and relatively acronym free, however, some must be used. To find out what acronyms stand for or what certain terms mean, please refer to the Acronyms and Definitions post. You’ll probably also want to check out the FAQ post. We’re not attempting to explain all the complex and convoluted laws here, this is a simple overview, but research the links provided on this site and others, and you can find much more detailed information. 
So, you suspect the US considers you a US person. You might be feeling a) worried, upset and frantic about how it’s going to affect you, or b) that the US will never find you because you haven’t had anything do with it for years.
In the latter case, unfortunately, it’s entirely possible that the IRS will find you, through FATCA. This new law by the US is requiring banks around the world to identify and report on their customers who are US persons.  FATCA is set to go into force in January 2013, and while it violates Canadian law, nevertheless, the banks are gearing up to comply with it. They will be reviewing accounts with more than $50K, whether a TFSA, RRSP RDSP, RESP for children, GIC, or regular savings or chequing account, looking for indications of a US connection. Although the limit is $50,000 now, there is no guarantee this limit will not be lowered in the future. If you have existing accounts under the $50k, the banks will go on what they know about you as a customer (KYC/AML rules).  If you open a new account, they may ask if you are a US person.  There are many people fighting against FATCA, but it’s going to be some time before we know what kind of protection will be provided by the Canadian government and Canadian law courts.  We also don’t know the final form that FATCA will takeThe draft FATCA guidelines can be found under links on this site.
You may wonder what about credit unions.    That also is a huge question. Some may have no US investments so they don’t have the IRS financial hammer over their heads.  Some of these have told customers they will not comply with FATCA.  Others that do have US investments or do some business in US have told their customers (also called owners) they are resisting FATCA, but they don’t know yet what they will do.
However, even if the IRS does find you through FATCA, it’s not necessarily the end of the world. The Canadian government, through the Minister of Finance, Jim Flaherty, has stated that Canada will not collect taxes or fines on Canadian citizens on behalf of the IRS, as long as that liability occurred while the person was a Canadian citizen. Further, we suspect (or maybe it’s hope) that the IRS will not expend the massive resources required to pursue us regular people (also called minnows), especially with that protection given to us by our Canadian government. The government’s stance does afford some protection, as long as you don’t have any US income on which 30% can be withheld by your bank.
If you’re in the second, frantic, category, first thing you need to understand is that this is likely to be a lengthy process for you, so you might as well take a deep breath, relax a little, and then educate yourself on your options. This is the best piece of advice we can offer: Do not rush into anything before you’ve thoroughly educated yourself. Do this for yourself before you consult any kind of a professional, whether a lawyer or a tax specialist.
There simply is no right way, or one way, to deal with this.
Some people, most particularly those who want to retain their US citizenship, feel they must comply and file all of the income tax returns, and reports on financial accounts, and continue to do so for as long as they remain a US citizen. That’s definitely one option, but not one either of the authors have much experience with, however there are people doing this. Retaining or renouncing citizenship is a very personal, and often emotional, decision. While most actually agree that it doesn’t make economic sense to remain a US citizen, they choose to do so because of emotional, financial or family ties to the United States.
Many believed they relinquished or renounced US citizenship when they became citizens of Canada years or even decades ago.  For many years the US Consulate was clear, firm and direct that loss of US citizenship was “permanent and irrevocable.” They have been stunned to learn that, due to a US Supreme Court decision in 1986, the US may now think otherwise.
A few lucky ones received Certificates of Loss of Nationality at the time.  Most had no idea such a certificate even existed and did not receive one.
Some lawyers think the IRS will recognize people in this group are NOT US citizens or persons.  Other lawyers have advised that anyone born in US is a US citizen and that those individuals should become compliant, unless they can prove their relinquishment with a CLN.  These mixed messages compound the confusion, frustration and worry.
Some people are spending the time, effort and money to come into compliance and then immediately taking the necessary steps to renounce their US citizenship.
There are choices to be made if you choose to come into compliance, such as entering a voluntary disclosure program, quietly filing all of the required years of tax returns and reports, or filing all of the reports and returns and opening a dialogue with the IRS.  Each of these options must be considered carefully, most particularly the entering into one of the disclosure programs, which can be very dangerous, financially.
For the people who will try to stay below the radar and hope the IRS never finds out about them, success  will be depend, in large part, on if the Canadian government will step up to the plate to uphold its laws and protect its citizens. If FATCA goes through as the United States intends, without opposition from our government, this will option will likely fail in the end.
Many people are taking steps to prove that they are not US citizens. This has been successful for several people, and they have obtained their Certificate of Loss of Nationality from the US State department, backdated to the date they became Canadian citizens. This is very good news for thousands of people around the world.  If you can prove you are not a US citizen and have not been for many years, then obviously there is no need to file anything with the IRS. A CLN may be required to prove to banks that you are not a US person, but that’s something we just don’t know at this stage. FATCA draft regulations do provide an alternative to a CLN—a non-US passport or other proof of non-US citizenship and a reasonable explanation of renunciation of US citizenship.
At this time, Canadian banks have no legal authority under Canadian law to demand information about place of birth or citizenship.  Unfortunately, to date, the government has not made a statement reassuring Canadians that Canadian laws will not be changed.
Others have decided that they will simply refuse to comply, even if identified as a US person.  The consequences of this are just not known yet. If a person has no income from the US, no property in the US, has no possibility of inheriting from a US person, it may be an option to consider. If someone admits to their bank that she was born in the US, but refuses to fill out the FATCA-required IRS forms, the bank is required to report that person as a ‘recalcitrant account holder’ and must withhold 30% of US source income. There are consequences to a bank for having recalcitrant account holders and we just don’t know at this stage how the banks are going to deal with it. We do not yet know if it will affect your ability to retain your bank accounts, open new bank accounts, obtain mortgages or have RRSPs.
In short, some of the options are:
–          Agree that you are a US person, file all past returns and reports, and continue to do so for all of your remaining years of life;
–          Agree that you are a US person, file all past returns and reports, and then renounce your US citizenship;
–          Prove you are not a US citizen by obtaining a Certificate of Loss of Nationality;
–          Do nothing until further information is available.
This post at citizenshipsolutions.ca gives tips on What you should consider before contacting a lawyer. This is written by a lawyer who is a dual Canadian-American citizen.
Only you can decide what is right for you. Read, read, read, and read some more, and then join in the discussions and ask questions. Take your time to make sure you’re making the decision that’s right for you and your family.
 

136 responses to “Have you just learned that the United States considers you a US person? (Updated February 6, 2014)”

  1. Deckard1138 Avatar
    Deckard1138

    @ Canadian, feeling let down
    You wrote: “So because I got my Canadian citizenship before I was 16, I can’t relinquish? This just makes me SO mad. I have NO ties to the US. Does renouncement mean I need to pay taxes?”
    I don’t know about your precise circumstances, but I also became a Canadian citizen when I was just 16. However, I still have a relinquishment case owing to the particular INA statutes that were in effect at that time (1975) and which remained so until significant amendments were made in 1986. Depending on your age, you may also fall into this category and might be able to argue a similar case.
    Here’s how it worked. If you were 21 or younger at the time of obtaining your Canadian citizenship, the U.S. Government would essentially hold your U.S. citizenship in trust until you reached the age of 25. However, if you did not move back to the U.S. by that age and establish permanent residence then your U.S. citizenship would automatically lapse for good (it would be good, all right – we just didn’t realize it back then). Here is the relevant portion of INA 349, as it was written in 1952 and still in force at the time (for me, 1984):
    “INA 349 – 66 STAT.] PUBLIC LAW 414 – JUNE 27, 1952
    Chapter 3 – Loss of Nationality
    LOSS OF NATIONALITY BY NATIVE-BORN OR NATURALIZED CITIZEN
    SEC. 349. (a) From and after the effective date of this Act a person who is a national of the United States whether by birth or naturalization, shall lose his nationality by-
    (1) obtaining naturalization in a foreign state upon his own application, upon an application filed in his behalf by a parent, guardian, or duly authorized agent, or through the naturalization of a parent having legal custody of such person: Provided, That nationality shall not be lost by any person under this section as the result of the naturalization of a parent or parents while such person is under the age of twenty-one years, or as the result of a naturalization obtained on behalf of a person under twenty-one years of age by a parent, guardian, or duly authorized agent, unless such person shall fail to enter the United States to establish a permanent residence prior to his twenty-fifth birthday.”
    As I mentioned, these statutes were amended in 1986 to remove all references to an age-25 cutoff. Therefore, you would currently have to be about 53 or older in order to take advantage of this contemporary statute, and you might also have to prove that you never did take up permanent residence in the U.S. before your 25th birthday. In my case, it would be easy to prove that I was still a full-time university student living in Toronto on my 25th birthday in 1984.
    Even if this information doesn’t apply to you, it is still a good example of just how complex it can be to determine your individual situation and options. It is very much about where you are positioned on the grand timeline of INA and IRS statutes and amendments over many years.
    All the best to you in your own journey.

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  2. AtticusinCanada Avatar
    AtticusinCanada

    Good points Shubert. I relinquished rather than renounced due to wanting to make my way smoother possibly at the border. I do have to travel there approximately once per year. A relinquishment may not be looked upon as harshly should I meet up with an officer having a bad day at the border.
    BUT if you have no reason to go there ever again and even if you do you may want to go the route of renouncement. I just felt more comfortable given the situation to do things as I did.
    And speaking of that WHERE is my CLN!? My dad is going down hill now and I want to go down there. I skipped Christmas thinking I’d go in the spring since I didn’t have my CLN. Well, I still do not have it. One member of this forum said it took seven months for her son’s to arrive. SEVEN months. This is unacceptable and something to think about when you relinquish. You do not get a receipt saying you paid and have renounced. You get nothing. I suppose you are in a computer somewhere but, that’s little comfort after you have paid for airfare. In that case renouncing is better. At least you have something to show.

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  3. Pacifica777 Avatar
    Pacifica777

    @ Mr. A.
    Check out the new post by Schubert. He just got some positive news from a friend in a situation that sounds similar to yours. http://maplesandbox.ca/2014/possible-relinquishment-route-for-cln-for-some-duals-at-birth-in-canada/

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  4. Schubert Avatar
    Schubert

    Pacifica beat me to the punch, was I just about to post a correction on this yes-16, no-16 back and forth. It’s not certain, but we have a respondent on my post over at Brock who says he asked by email to a consulate whether his age-16 oath of allegiance to get a citizenship card would qualify for a relinquishment. He was told, come in for an interview, we can’t make a determination by email. He wasn’t told “no.” That may or may not mean “yes” when he goes, but they could have said “no,” and they didn’t. I told him it’s worth a shot; see the discussion on the other website for more.

    Possible relinquishment route for CLN for some duals-at-birth in Canada

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  5. Mr. A. Avatar
    Mr. A.

    Thank you both for your help with this. I still wonder if the process of applying for and getting the Canadian citizenship card qualifies as an act of expatriation even if no oath of allegiance was signed, ie “…or making an
    affirmation or other formal declaration of allegiance to a foreign state”
    One could argue that one was affirming their allegiance to Canada simply by getting the card. I will apply for my Canadian Citizenship file and post what it shows when I hopefully get my file.

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  6. Carrida Avatar
    Carrida

    I was wondering that too.. When I got my citizenship back in 2006 I do not remember what I signed, but I do know that at the ceremony as a group we all had to stand and pledge our allegiance to the queen.. Which brings up one of the questions on the current IRS program they are offering for people who have been out of the states since 2009.. One of the questions is were you aware you were a US citizen.. Wondering if in that situation We should be answering No… As per our pledge to Canada?

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  7. Schubert Avatar
    Schubert

    @Mr. A. I think your interpretation and argument is worth a try, especially if you go to the consulate in Toronto and if you were to bring with you a signed affidavit swearing that by getting that card you voluntarily were affirming that you considered yourself a Canadian and only a Canadian and that you did so intending to relinquish any claim you had to US citizenship. Especially if everything you swear to on Form 4079 points to never having attempted to exercise US citizenship after getting the card, I think you have a case. But then I’m not a US vice consul so there are no guarantees. Worse case, they say no and then you have to renounce. But I think it would definitely be worth a shot.
    @ Carrida. If you swear that you became a Canadian citizen voluntarily (I doubt there was a Mountie holding a gun to your head …) and did so with the intention of relinquishing your US citizenship and holding only one citizenship (Canadian), and all else on your form 4079 points to behaviour thereafter consistent with such an intention, I think you’re fine. Not sure about the pre-2009 bit and how that would play out, you probably should get (Canadian cross-border) legal advice on that. I have no idea.
    BTW a truthful statement that I know several people swore to in affidavits in getting a relinquishment CLN, would be along the lines (if it’s true, which it is I think for almost everyone) “at the time I became Canadian and relinquished my US citizenship, I was not aware of any need formally to notify the US government of this fact. If I had been aware at the time, I would have notified the State Department at the time. I wasn’t, but I am now, and I am now informing you.” That nails the point. The fact is, until the last two years when these websites began, I don’t know of anyone (including me) who was aware of any need to inform State of relinquishment, and in fact and in US law (see the Michael J. Miller article in May 2013 International Tax Journal references in another thread discussion) the ONLY form of relinquishment which the law passed by Congress requires going to a US consular officer, is renunciation itself. Obviously you now need to inform them to get a CLN to get the banks and the border patrol off your back, but that’s just post-hoc confirmation of the fact of your relinquishment years ago. It doesn’t nullify your relinquishment, and IRS cannot legally claim that your date of relinquishment “for tax purposes” was when you told State, not when you did it, if it was before June 3, 2004 (which is when that additional law passed by Congress took effect, they can’t enforce it ex post facto and they damn well know this, as reflected in the structure for IRS Form 8854 and the instructions for it as issued a week or two ago for 2013).
    How that 2006 vs 2004 vs 2009 business plays out re your tax-filing from an IRS perspective, I can’t comment, maybe someone else can. I know nothing about that.
    I hope the above helps (and it’s not legal advice; I’m not a lawyer).

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  8. Carrida Avatar
    Carrida

    Oath of Citizenship
    The Oath of Citizenship / Le serment de citoyenneté
    Listen to this chapter
    I swear (or affirm)
    That I will be faithful
    And bear true allegiance
    To Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second
    Queen of Canada
    Her Heirs and Successors
    And that I will faithfully observe
    The laws of Canada
    And fulfil my duties as a Canadian citizen.
    Je jure (ou j’affirme solennellement)
    Que je serai fidèle
    Et porterai sincère allégeance
    à Sa Majesté la Reine Elizabeth Deux
    Reine du Canada
    À ses héritiers et successeurs
    Que j’observerai fidèlement les lois du Canada
    Et que je remplirai loyalement mes obligations
    de citoyen canadien.

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  9. Carrida Avatar
    Carrida

    Also from CIC website…
    Prepare for the citizenship ceremony
    The citizenship ceremony is the final step to becoming a Canadian citizen. You will take the Oath of Citizenship and get your citizenship certificate there.
    We will send you a notice telling you to attend a ceremony and take the oath, if you meet all of the conditions to:
    become a Canadian citizen, or
    get your Canadian citizenship back.
    The notice will tell you when and where the ceremony will be held.
    As a new citizen, you must wait at least two business days after your ceremony before you can apply for services, such as a passport.

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  10. Mr. A. Avatar
    Mr. A.

    @Schubert
    I am in the process of applying for my Canadian citizenship file, which will likely take a while to arrive. I agree that even without an oath of allegiance (and I will be surprised if I did sign one) that the argument of affirmation of allegiance to Canada is worth a try. I have never acted as a US citizen in any way, either before or since getting the card. You know that I am a dual from birth who has only lived in Canada as a Canadian. Toronto is where I would go.
    If they say no to this argument for relinquishment (in 2000 in my case), would it not be better to walk out than to renounce? I know that renouncing means becoming tax compliant which is the last thing I want to do as I am not in the system in any way. I know that Pacifica has said that DOS does not care about your IRS/tax status (they only deal with citizenship status) but doesn’t renouncing mean that your CLN will be sent to the IRS? This will make them aware of my existence and may make me look like a tax evader as I have not filed tax returns & FBAR’s. As I have no SSN, TIN etc. they may ignore my CLN but then again what if they don’t. I am aware that they can’t collect from me but I would prefer that they never know about me.
    On the other hand it would be nice to get a CLN in case I need it for protection from the banks. It hasn’t been determined yet if I really need a CLN depending what the Canadian government does re. upholding our Charter, privacy & banking laws but I would like to start planning possible courses of action depending on how events develop (which of course in my case include doing nothing).
    Please tell me if you think that renouncing is a good idea if you have no intention of following it up with the tax return & FBAR filing obligations. Getting a CLN this way would likely work for our banks just the same so the IRS would never potentially get my account info. etc. However it could leave me as a non-compliant tax evader (would I be a “fugitive from US justice”?) with a border computer red flag. I can live with never entering US soil again. It may be better to stay off their radar for now than getting a CLN through renouncing.
    Pacifica & KalC – if you see this I would appreciate your opinions too, although your recent comments suggest that no one really knows what happens if someone renounces and then never becomes tax compliant.
    Thanks again Schubert.

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  11. Carrida Avatar
    Carrida

    Thanks for the reply! I think I will be ok. I became canadian PR in 2001 and a Citizen in 2006. I never renewed my US passport and I have not voted in any US elections after 2000. I did cross into the US once for 2 days in 2011 using my canadian enhanced drivers license and also crossed in 2013 for 2 days using my canadian passport ( which states a US birthplace)
    I own no property in the US, no business dealings, all my family has passed, and I keep no contact with us friends, I have also not filed US tax since my canadian citizenship. In my mind I relinquished US citizenship upon getting my canadian and swearing my oath. I did not know of any formal requirement to get a CLN.

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  12. KalC Avatar
    KalC

    I think it’s 50:50. I really do. Depends a bit on your age and how long this will go on. In your mind, you are not a US citizen so you have no desire/need/obligation to file anything. I firmly believe you will be fine without a CLN. Don’t have an account over 1M. That’s who they are really interested in.

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  13. Carrida Avatar
    Carrida

    I hope your right! I’m in my 50’s and most defiantly do not have anywhere close to a mil in the bank! Who knows what they are looking for and hopefully even IF identified as a “US person” banks will accept a Canadian passport or citizenship card in lieu. It seems much undue hassle and expense to have to convince some official of my “intent” of something I did years ago just to get an “official” piece of paper. I really feel for you that were born duel… This is sure a headache EH!

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  14. Schubert Avatar
    Schubert

    Mr. A.
    For what it’s worth, it’s my impression (based on watching for the names of around 25 people I know with CLNs, on the IRS Federal Register quarterly reports) that if you renounce your citizenship, it is very likely that State Department will forward a copy of your CLN to IRS. US law requires them to do this, and requires IRS to publish on Federal Register the names on all CLNs they received from State in the previous quarter (three month period). They only publish the name, not the birth date or place of residence at the time the CLN was issued, but that information is on the CLN that was copied to them, so they’ll know it, if they get a copy of your CLN.
    Some people who renounce have reported on this website that their names have never shown up on the list, but all but one of the renunciants whose real names I know have been listed. So it’s rather haphazard, as far as most of us can tell. Not one of the eight or so folks I know who got CLNs based on pre-2004 relinquishments have shown up on the lists however (some got their CLNs more than 18 months ago, so time isn’t the issue).
    I am assuming that if the CLN isn’t copied to IRS, IRS won’t know about it, but that is an assumption that might be wrong. I don’t know for certain that it is correct.
    So if you renounce (rather than having relinquished before 2004) but don’t file back taxes and a form 8854, I think there is a serious risk that they’d be looking for you at the US border, once they get their act together. Be aware however that if you are a Canadian citizen and were going back at least six years (tax liabilities incurred before you were a Canadian citizen might be collectable but not if you were Canadian citizen from before November 1998 under a 2007 treaty amendment), Canada Revenue Agency won’t be collecting anything for IRS against you, not tax payments, not penalties, and they don’t enforce US reporting requirements. Both CRA and Jim Flaherty have confirmed this, in writing; those protections are in the current Canada-US Tax Treaty. I very much doubt this government has any interest in throwing those treaty protections out the window. I don’t think any responsible sovereign government wants to be a tax-collector for the Americans. Certainly no government I’d ever vote for.
    What happens down the road at the banks in Canada, if Canada signs an IGA (and depending on what’s in the IGA) — who knows? At minimum, expect in that case that 30% of any US-source income (that could include a lot of mutual funds if you have them, unless they are absolutely 100% non-US in terms of content) may be withheld from you and sent to the IRS. Canadian-source income they can’t touch AFAIK. US-source income they can essentially seize at source. That could include any property or inheritance you might have or get from the US.
    That’s my understanding of the situation, but I’m not a lawyer nor accountant, so don’t take my comments as Truth. They’re just my best guess at the moment.
    If you weren’t at yesterday’s information session in Toronto (see the post pinned to the home page of this website), I urge you to try to get to one of the other sessions and ask your questions of the lawyer who’s there, though he only offers general information and can’t provide individual counsel at these sessions.

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  15. Pacifica777 Avatar
    Pacifica777

    @ Mr. A.
    Re: “I know that Pacifica has said that DOS does not care about your IRS/tax status (they only deal with citizenship status) but doesn’t renouncing mean that your CLN will be sent to the IRS?”
    I should have been more clear — that they don’t care in terms of doing their job, which is taking care of the citizenship itself, and the citizenship (or loss of it) is not dependent on tax status. [The question on the 4079 about do you file taxes has to do with determining if one has been behaving as a US citizen, which is relevant if one is claiming having relinquished.]
    You’re correct about the CLNs being sent to IRS. According to the Dept of State Foreign Affairs Manual, 7 FAM 1243(b), DOS is supposed to send IRS a copy of each CLN they issue under s. 349(a)(1), (2), (3), (4) and (5). http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/113465.pdf
    I’ve no clue if IRS follows up on these CLNs or not, perhaps depends if the fruit is low-hanging or high-hanging.
    Whether or not the person ever files with IRS, the citizenship itself remains terminated and the CLN remains in effect.
    Re: “Pacifica & KalC – if you see this I would appreciate your opinions too, although your recent comments suggest that no one really knows what happens if someone renounces and then never becomes tax compliant.”
    I really don’t know. The only thing I know for sure is that the citizenship remains terminated, but IRS is a mystery to me. I wish I could shed some light because it’s important, but it would just be my personal speculation.

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  16. maz57 Avatar
    maz57

    For what it’s worth to all above, I’ll describe what I decided my course of action was going to be going forward. I became a Canadian on December 14, 2012. Immediately after returning home from the ceremony, I emailed the US consulate in Vancouver, told them that I had become a Canadian citizen with the intent of losing my US citizenship and requested an appointment to document that relinquishment and apply for a CLN. Their reply was “take a number and get in line; CLN appointments are in high demand and we don’t know when one might be available”. I made sure I saved copies of that correspondence.
    Eventually I lost patience with their obstructionism because no appointment ever became available. (Apparently, very recently they have changed their procedure.) In the meanwhile, I had gotten a good look at Form 8854 and resolved to never file one of those abominations. I mean, really, why why give the bastards a shopping list of my wholly Canadian assets?
    So now, I’m no longer a US citizen; I don’t give a damn what they say. Because I’m not a US citizen, I’m not going to act like one. No tax returns, no 8938, no FBARs, and certainly no 8854 exit tax form for assets that were never in the US in the first place. I attempted to return my US passport but they said “don’t do that; we’ll just send it back to you”. It’s useless to me; I can’t use it to enter the US because I’m not a US citizen. So it just sits in the bottom of a dresser drawer, never to see the light of day again.
    I’m betting on a few things:
    (1) No US assets, so no leverage on me.
    (2) The protection of the Canadian government.
    (3) The IRS has so much on it’s plate with FATCA they they won’t know whether they’re coming or going for years.
    (4) I’m low enough income and low enough net worth that even if they do get around to looking into my case, they’ll figure I’m not worth the effort . (If no CLN ever winds up on an IRS agent’s desk, how would I ever even come to their attention?)
    (5) Although I believe it’s highly unlikely I’d be banned, I’m fully prepared to never set foot ion the US again. (I’d enjoy telling all my US friends and relatives what a wretched government they’ve got).
    (6) Eventually FATCA and this whole offshore jihad is going to blow up in their faces and we who have resisted the insanity will be on the right side of history. Kind of like Vietnam back in the 60’s and 70’s.
    So, over the course of a few years, I went from totally oblivious, to scared to death, to trying my best to become compliant, to realizing that wasn’t possible and have a life at the same time, to mad as hell, I’m not going to take it anymore.

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  17. Carrida Avatar
    Carrida

    Maz..you’ve pretty much summed up my feelings! I applaude you!

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  18. Mr. A. Avatar
    Mr. A.

    Schubert, Pacifica, maz57,
    Thank you so much for all your help – all the helpful information that I have learned on these two sites have been so important in guiding me through this sea of uncertainty, and the journey may have a long way to go as we all know. No I couldn’t make the Toronto session (very busy with work & family) but I will try to get to one of the others. I am very inspired by the way people pull together in the face of injustice, which stirs the human spirit like nothing else.

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  19. GeorgeIII Avatar
    GeorgeIII

    a)
    “Where account holder information unambiguously indicates a
    U.S.
    place of birth
    , the Reporting United Kingdom Financial Institution
    obtains or has previously reviewed and maintains a record of:
    (1)
    a self-certification that the account holder is neither a U.S.
    citizen nor a U.S. resident for ta
    x purposes (which may be on an
    IRS Form W-8 or other similar agreed form);
    (2)
    a non-U.S. passport or other gov
    ernment-issued identification
    evidencing the account holder’s citizenship or nationality in a
    country other than the United States;
    and
    (3)
    a copy of the account holder’s Certificate of Loss of Nationality
    of the United States or a reasonable explanation of:
    (a)
    the reason the account holder does not have such a
    certificate despite renoun
    cing U.S. citizenship;
    or
    (b)
    the reason the account holder did not obtain U.S.
    citizenship at birth.
    from UK Facta

    Click to access FATCA-Agreement-UK-9-12-2012.pdf

    You need more then CLN
    You have to do a 8854 tax compliant for W8 to be true.But of course you a W8 is an IRS document. Does the Canadian government protect us from lying on an IRS document especially when we only have Canadian assets.

    Like

  20. GeorgeIII Avatar
    GeorgeIII

    maz
    You probably do not even enough asset for them to bother with you in a court of law. There is also the revenue rule. The only thing is that 1995 Canada US tax treaty allows the USA collect on taxes owed before you became a Canadian, The Liberal government approved it. Pierre Trudeau never complained about it unlike Meech Lake. You may want to check on the Parliamentary record if NDP supported it. I think there were 2 conservatives at that time.

    Like

  21. Spencer Avatar
    Spencer

    I can truly appreciate Maz and many others have decided to cut ties to the US including citizenship and filing US returns/FBARs etc. Although I’m also a proud Canadian citizen I still wish to travel to and from the US.
    I came to Canada in 1970 and have spent my adult life in BC. I elected to start filing US returns in the 1980’s because of high frequency business travel to the US. I still file US tax returns, including this year’s FBAR submitted the other day electronically (the only way you can do so now) and for the first time this year 8938’s. I even got my US passport renewed recently. So, I’m basically in compliance although still wondering if the IRS will eventually come knocking on the door for me to help pay down the colossal mountain of US debt.
    So, here’s my situation. I meet regularly with about 7 other US expats at our local Tim Hortons once a month. About half of us file US returns/FBARs. The rest don’t and don’t intend to do so. LIke me, they have been in Canada for 30 years plus. The topic of FATCA discussed this week and the discussion was somewhat tense.
    Those of us who file US returns are mostly retired and have no US tax payable. We are way below the 97K US foreign tax exemption. Our RRSP’s are modest and all have taken steps to have separate bank accounts from our Canadian spouses. We don’t hear from the IRS, either. For a number of years none of us have received an acknowledgment of having filed 1040 paper returns even when submitted by courier to Austin TX. I do get an electronic acknowledgment for having filed FBAR’s. Is this normal?
    Finally, although we heard the CBC news story about the high profile case of the disabled young man from Calgary and his mother being harassed by the IRS for his disability RDSP (not recognized by the IRS) do we actually know how active the IRS is in chasing “minnows” in Canada.

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  22. Ned Avatar
    Ned

    You’re still a US citizen. Whether you have US income or not is irrelevant because, even without FATCA, US citizens are liable to file US tax returns on worldwide income regardless of where they live in the world.

    Like

  23. Blaze Avatar
    Blaze

    @Ned: To most of us it’s a foreign law. We long ago relinquished US citizenshship “permanently and irrevocably”–at least that’s what the US Consulate said. So, I guess we shouldn’t have believed them.
    Others were merely born in US to Canadian parents. Under the law at the time when they became adults, they did not claim their US citizenship and so were not considered US citizens.
    That should be the end of this story. The US calls us criminals but what they are doing is truly criminal–but they hide it under the guise of a law–which to most of us is a foreign law.
    Canada Revenue Agency does not and will not collect tax liability for IRS for any Canadian citizen. The Minister of National Revenue reconfirmed that this month. IRS cannot collect in Canadian courts either.

    Like

  24. George III Avatar
    George III

    US, but refuses to fill out the FATCA-required IRS forms, the bank is required to report that person as a ‘recalcitrant account holder’ and must withhold 30% of US source
    I do not think that is correct for the Canadian FATCA.
    I did drop all US holding and I am just some who threw away a green card 35 years ago. I even did an I-407 one I once cross border. It lost to but not on US records. I even request from revenue Canad that I have been a resident for past 30 year realy do not need it now.

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  25. Eagle and wings Avatar
    Eagle and wings

    All this FATCA and US citizenship taxation is so wrong. Nobody in the US sees it and do nothing about? This is unjust. We want justice.

    Like

  26. WhiteKat Avatar
    WhiteKat

    @EagleandWings,
    Time is of the essence, call your MP and make an appointment to see him/her. Bring him/her a copy of the FATCA fact sheet. Many of our MPs have never even heard of FATCA, and of those that have, most don’t understand what it is and are swallowing the party line, that it is a ‘good deal for Canada’.

    Like

  27. Hijacked Avatar
    Hijacked

    @ Schubert
    On Jan. 26 you wrote:
    RS cannot legally claim that your date of relinquishment “for tax purposes” was when you told State, not when you did it, if it was before June 3, 2004 (which is when that additional law passed by Congress took effect, they can’t enforce it ex post facto and they damn well know this, as reflected in the structure for IRS Form 8854 and the instructions for it as issued a week or two ago for 2013).
    I am curious as to what, if anything, you see in the 2013 instructions that differs from previous instructions. I read these things and get a throbbing headache trying to decipher what they are saying.

    Like

  28. OutragedCanadian Avatar

    We’ve been asked to post an anecdotal letter on behalf of Dual Senior who would like comments on it, as the intent is to send it Canadian & US newspapers, TV stations and US congress persons, maybe even the US president. I applaud Dual Senior who wants to get out there and scream, rather than sitting at home moaning!
    Here’s the letter:
    Canadian Government is Allowing IRS to Bankrupt Canadian Seniors
    (Hey Ottawa your throwing granny under the bus)
    There are many with dual Canadian/US citizenship and people unaware the US considers them US citizens living in Canada. God help you if you have an American parent or happen to have been born there and left when you were three minutes old. The IRS considers you an American for tax purposes. With the enactment of FATCA and the requirement of FBAR filings many of these law abiding Canadian citizens could be thrown into bankruptcy. If they don’t comply they could be denied entry into the US, though not happening yet my fear is it is on the horizon. Sitting in that line up in Lewiston you will wonder….will this time be OK? Will I have to turn around and drive home? In my situation until recently I had aging parents in a US nursing home. I HAD to get there. Many have family in the US and also enjoy vacationing there. Canadian banks are now required to identify these people and report them to the IRS. Some banks in other countries are closing US accounts and certainly not opening any new accounts to this large subset of people due to the administrative costs and the toxicity of these accounts. The banks will be severely penalized if they have unreported US citizens as clients. Will Canada follow? (Sure hope there are folks out there way smarter than I watching this).
    I am sure there are many out there finding themselves in situations similar to mine. Here is my story:
    I am a senior, have lived in Canada since 1976. I became a dual citizen in 1983. Both of my children were born and raised here, I am Canadian. Although I was aware of needing to file US taxes (the US is one of two countries in the world that taxes its citizens world wide, the other being the terrorist country of Eritrea) my income was below the need for filing. Even if my income had been more substantial the cost of hiring an internationally savvy accountant to prepare the required returns is in the $800-$1,000 range, even if no taxes are owed due to foreign tax credits.
    Like many ordinary folk I don’t read financial magazines, don’t spend my leisure hours reading tax treaties and live an ordinary law abiding life of a retiree; knitting, tending my garden, walking the dog and shaking my head at Rob Ford. (Or currently trying to keep the snow off of the front walk). I live frugally on a modest monthly RRIF withdrawal and CPP.
    I have a very small TFSA account, a checking/savings account and a RRIF. Under the IRS FBAR ruling, which I just found out existed, I was/am required to file forms to the IRS for each account for the past eight years. The Canadian government is boasting that they have negotiated with the US that TSFAs and RRSPs will not be taxed by the US however a US tax return must be filed, along with incurring the accounting fees, requesting a deferment in paying taxes on these accounts until they are withdrawn. Then you must file a 1040NR. FBAR forms will also be and have been required for these accounts.
    The penalty for not having filed these forms, even if no taxes are owed, is $10,000 per form per year for I believe back eight years. With my three accounts requiring FBARs that would be (3 x $10,000) x 8 years = $240,000 in penalties for accounts that I do not owe taxes on. There is also a penalty for not checking a box on the yearly tax IRS tax return for deferring RRSP/TFSA payments. This means no matter what your income is you have to file US tax returns and pay the hefty accounting fees just to check that box and if you are unable, file your FBARs.
    It seems the best option is to just quietly file all the required back forms (I’ve heard there are accountants out there that will do it for around $2,000) then just sit back and hope for the best. Of course now I am “identified” by the IRS and have not paid the penalties. What I am left with is hoping that the IRS and DHS haven’t linked their computers YET. And when they do what does that actually mean? Just leaves ya with a great feeling huh. Got that holiday all paid for and can’t get on the plane? If any of you are considering the voluntary disclosure route do your homework. This can end up being a nightmare.
    There is a popular term for people finding themselves in this situation; we are the “minnows”. The low hanging fruit the IRS can “get” with minimal effort. The whales, as the hedge fund, wealthy tax evaders are referred to are more difficult to catch. They have fancy lawyers and accountants and have their cash under a coral reef in the Cayman Islands. We are a good ROI.
    I understand my problem is with the IRS (don’t worry I am also yelling at them but guess what….they don’t care) but our government is not acknowledging that this problem exists and is not helping us at the intergovernmental level. More importantly they are now actively reporting the existence of these accounts to the IRS so they can come after us. The Canadian government can not collect these taxes nor penalize us yet they are exposing us to harsh penalties if we decide to ever step one foot into the US. They are aiding and abetting in making us international criminals. There is the chance we will end up on Canadian welfare and in Ontario Housing as an unintended consequence if we must become compliant. The government has a much larger voice than mine for sure. It would be beneficial to them to not allow the US to send us into bankruptcy.
    Interestingly you can’t even renounce/relinquish your US citizenship without becoming tax compliant unless you want to be deemed a “covered expatriate”. What that will mean in the future I have no idea but me thinks it t’ain’t good. If you are one of the lucky ones that never had a US passport or did not vote after you became Canadian you will have an easier time relinquishing. (Read up on renouncing versus relinquishing, there is a $450 dollar difference). Oh, one more little thing….the US has to approve your renouncement, you are now identified to them and they gotcha. What if Uncle Sam decides not to let you go?
    Many of us have family in the US, like to holiday there during the cold Canadian winters. Seems the choice is bankruptcy or never being able to visit your grandchildren or aging parents……..Thanks.
    Americans somehow consider themselves exceptional….yes, they are exceptionally cruel and the Canadian government is not protecting us. This has become a human rights violation.
    I would like to remain anonymous as I fear the IRS will come knocking at my door any minute. (Yes, they are making me paranoid. The Canadian government has caved thus far, what’s to stop them from caving a wee bit more.)

    Like

  29. WhiteKat Avatar
    WhiteKat

    Please tell Granny her letter is excellent and needs to be distributed far and wide. Don’t forget CARP which is described as: “a national, non-partisan, non-profit organization committed to a ‘New Vision of Aging for Canada’ promoting social change that will bring financial security, equitable access to health care and freedom from discrimination.” Here are email addresses for two CARP contacts.
    Michael Nicin, Director of Carp: m.nicin@carp.ca
    Sarah Park, Policy Researcher & Coordinator at CARP: s.park@carp.ca

    Like

  30. OutragedCanadian Avatar

    @WhiteKat, I’m hoping she will check out the comments herself, she’s registered with us. Thanks for tip on CARP, it’s a good one. And, isn’t it amazing how eloquent we can be when we are so frustrated, outraged, and downright angry!

    Like

  31. WhiteKat Avatar
    WhiteKat

    Yes, the words just flow when you have the passion behind you!

    Like

  32. Blaze Avatar
    Blaze

    @Dual Senior: I hope you’re letting your MP know how you feel–especially if he or she is Conservative.
    The proposed legislation to enable FATCA will have that law supersede any Canadian laws that are inconsistent with that law.
    I don’t think IRS will ever come knocking on your door. I don’t think they have the resources or interest in doing that. I don’t think they would be allowed to do that in Canada.
    However, two weeks ago, I believed Canada would never consider allowing a foreign law to override long-standing Canadian banking, privacy and human rights laws. Then the IGA was announced, along with proposed legislation to override fundamental rights under Canadian laws. I clearly was wrong about that.
    We have been betrayed by both our country of citizenship and choice (Canada) and our country of birth (United States).

    Like

  33. calgary411 Avatar
    calgary411

    I hope others here will visit Isaac Brock and read the posts about and correspondence with CARP after CARP’s mealy-mouthed announcement that the IGA our government of Canada negotiated with the US was a good deal (or at least that’s the way I read it). They touted their considerable lobbying regarding FATCA. Reading CARP newsletters, not receiving CARP communication to my comments and questions, I really don’t think it was ever highlighted as other things are. I hope they see FATCA combined with citizenship-based taxation in a new light, especially after White-Kat’s last correspondence with them, telling it like it really is!
    I just put this comment on Isaac Brock as well. It is something I think about each and every day — those who have NO financial resources / NO financial and tax literacy.
    quote
    On another note, it preys on my mind every single day the number of people this round-up of US Persons will affect who DO NOT have financial resources for their own lives that they think is unaffected by this, who besides having very little in the way of finances, have very little in the way of financial / tax (whatever the country) literacy. There have to be more than a fair share of these individuals / families out there. One has told me she is too poor for this to affect her. So, will that be true? You can’t get blood from a stone so these people should not worry about any of this? What will be their consequences; what will happen to the lives of these families who for whatever reason just don’t have money to get US legal / accounting advice and certainly do not have the expertise to handle it themselves? I don’t want to scare the bejesus out of them. I can very well put myself into their shoes: there but for the grace of god could have gone I — much of my life a single parent with two children, one with developmental disability as well as concurrent medical problems (and me with my own medical issues). Believe me, I know the lucky breaks I’ve had to be able to be a contributing member of Canadian society (along with some very hard work and planning) and I thank all that is holy, that my path brought me to Canada — I would choose this as my country of citizenship over and over again. Had I stayed in the US, I am convinced my circumstances would have rendered me a ‘welfare mom’ with two small children to raise. Do not other people here think that this, aside from our problems, could be huge in the number so affected — and damn ugly?
    unquote

    Like

  34. Dual Senior Avatar
    Dual Senior

    OK, now I am going and try to post myself. YIKES! Obviously I have just found out about all of this FATCA stuff and still in the OH MY GOD phase. I am so angry I could chew nails. Can I impose on all of you again to read the letter I have composed for US consumption. Much is the same as my Canadian letter so I hope not to bore you but I have made additions directed at the US. I need to know where I am misinformed, overly hysterical or have left anything out. I am retired and have LOTS of time on my hands. I will be going on an email binge just to make myself feel better. US congress watch out…here comes granny! (Anyone know how to do that robo email stuff)?
    Here is my second letter:
    US Government Destroying Lives of Seniors Abroad
    There are many with dual US citizenship and people unaware the US considers them US citizens living in abroad. God help you if you have an American parent or happen to have been born there and left when you were three minutes old. The IRS considers you an American for tax purposes. With the enactment of FATCA and the requirement of FBAR filings many of these law-abiding citizens could be thrown into bankruptcy. If they don’t comply they could be denied entry into the US, though not happening yet my fear is it is on the horizon. Sitting in that line up at the bridge you will wonder….will this time be OK? Will I have to turn around and drive home? That holiday I’ve already paid for….will they let me on the plane? My mother is ill, my grandchild was just born…..on and on goes the very real horrors I can make myself ill thinking about. When I really get myself into a frenzy I envision myself in San Quentin or Attica….do they have a special ward for grannies?
    In my situation, until recently, I had aging parents in a US nursing home. I HAD to get there. Hopefully my son living in the US will bless me with grandchildren soon. Oddly, I hope to be able to visit them. Many have family in the US and also enjoy vacationing there. Banks are now required to identify these people and report them to the IRS. Many banks world wide are closing US accounts and certainly not opening any new accounts to this large subset of people due to the administrative costs and the toxicity of these accounts. The banks will be severely penalized by not being able to invest in the US if they have unreported US citizens as clients.
    I am sure there are many out there finding themselves in situations similar to mine. My nightmare is Canadian but in any country that has signed a FACTA agreement the same rules apply.
    Here is my story:
    I am a senior, have lived in Canada since 1976 having come here with my then husband looking for work. I became a dual citizen in 1983. Both of my children were born here and as they grew and became entrenched in their Canadian lives it became increasingly more difficult to pick up and come home so we stayed and time just rolled on. I am old now and entrenched in my simple life in the country. I have one adult child here and one in the US.
    Although I was aware of needing to file US taxes (the US is one of two countries in the world that taxes its citizens world wide, the other being the terrorist country of Eritrea) my income was below the need for filing. Even if my income had been more substantial the cost of hiring an internationally savvy accountant to prepare the required returns is in the $800-$1,000 range, even if no taxes are owed due to foreign tax credits. Am I being irrational in thinking if I don’t owe any taxes I don’t have to read treaties? Is it irrational to think if I don’t live someplace, don’t use any services, don’t have any benefits that I still owe money? If indeed I am that idiotic then it is certainly time for me to go into a nursing home. I can’t be trusted to care for myself.
    Like many ordinary folk I don’t read financial magazines, don’t spend my leisure hours reading tax treaties and live an ordinary law abiding life of a retiree; knitting, tending my garden, walking the dog and shaking my head at Rob Ford. (Or currently trying to keep the snow off of the front walk). I live frugally on a modest monthly self funded retirement plan (RRIF) withdrawal and the Canadian Pension Fund. I file my Canadian taxes using U-File. I answer all the questions in the interview thingy and press send. With my modest income I am not required to file US taxes so I never interacted with a US interview thingy. Is this another thing on my annual “to do” list that I forgot? Get eves troughs cleaned, windows washed, read tax treaties. Freakin’ Hell, I can’t even figure out how to text on my flip phone let alone know where it is.
    OH, but wait…..I’m having an unusual moment of clarity. That was the plan all along. Quietly change the tax rules on a low information group who has no representation in congress, no fancy accountants to inform them, impose inordinately harsh penalties and voila….US deficit zero. I’m next writing to the Canadian government to advise them to get on board the gravy train, why are they waiting? FACTA has to work both ways or it isn’t fair. They must quietly change the laws on all Canadians in the US, enact harsh penalties for non-compliance in reporting their IRAs/401Ks and bank accounts. Then tell the US government if they don’t comply in outing them we are not sending them any more NHL players. Good gracious, we could start stockpiling nukes maybe even build a subway to Pearson! Totally groovy.
    I have a very small tax free savings account, a checking/savings account and a RRIF. Under the IRS FBAR ruling, which I just found out existed, I was/am required to file forms to the IRS for each account for the past eight years. The Canadian government is boasting that they have negotiated with the US that our tax deferred accounts will not be taxed by the US however a US tax return must be filed, along with incurring the accounting fees, requesting a deferment in paying taxes on these accounts until they are withdrawn. Then you must file a 1040NR. FBAR forms will also be and have been required for these accounts.
    The penalty for not having filed these forms, even if no taxes are owed, is $10,000 per form per year for I believe back eight years. I have three accounts requiring FBARs that would be (3 x $10,000) x 8 years = $240,000 in penalties for accounts that I do not owe taxes on. I DO NOT HAVE THIS MONEY! There is also a penalty for not checking a box on the yearly tax IRS tax return for deferring these retirement planning accounts. This means no matter what your income is you have to file US tax returns and pay the hefty accounting fees just to check that box and if you are unable, file your FBARs. Yes, again I’m the poor fool. How exactly was I suppose to know this? Maybe you could start using those drones of yours to drop IRS fliers. (How I did find out was via a neighbor who is a Canadian financial advisor. Her office received a notice regarding FATCA last week and she sent me an email asking if this might affect me. I went on the Google and slowly descended into suicidal depression.)
    There is a popular term for people finding themselves in this situation; we are the “minnows”. The low hanging fruit the IRS can “get” with minimal effort. The whales, as the hedge fund, wealthy tax evaders are referred to are more difficult to catch. They have fancy lawyers and accountants and have their cash under a coral reef in the Cayman Islands. We are a good ROI.
    Dearest IRS do you understand some of the consequences of doing this? Maybe you don’t care about the “blow back”, the absolute anger and terror you are inflicting on your citizens abroad. Many of us have had to go abroad to find a job that you don’t seem able to provide just to survive. We are doing you a favor not being on welfare or SNAP. How about the tourist/shopping dollars you’re going to forego when we can’t enter the US for the ever increasing potential of going to jail? Many of us care for aging parents in the US, have grandchildren there, folks we are supporting with our foreign dollars. Many of us thought we would go abroad for a while and one day return home. Now if we decide to come home we will be forced into the “Uncle Sugar” plan after we pay the penalties you have inflicted.
    You tell us there are voluntary disclosure programs, streamline procedures, many different vehicles for us to become compliant. Just trust you, it will be OK. Take a minute to search the internet for the stories of people who have tried that. The rules change mid stream, you still want your money from people that don’t have it, shouldn’t owe it and all are deemed willfully noncompliant. How can you be willful about something you had no idea existed? But no, of course we are all just evil tax evaders just trying to screw Uncle Sam. Are you kidding? Please don’t wonder why you are increasingly known as the evil empire abroad, even your own citizens are really, really angry and frankly terrified of you. You are destroying any good will that we as mini foreign ambassadors might have spread.
    You are leaving us with only one option, an extremely sad option also riddled with land mines, that I never, ever saw in my future. I was an extremely proud American living abroad. I follow MSNBC and Fox just to have the whole picture, vote by proxy and remain very involved in my culture, it is in my DNA. Now you are forcing me to renounce my citizenship. Even then once I apply for renunciation you will deem me a “covered expatriate” if I don’t pay the penalties I owe and force me into bankruptcy. How you manage your “covered expatriates” remains to be seen but my best guess is that it won’t be pretty. You also have to approve my relinquishing and I’m betting that if I owe you money you won’t approve. I am that criminal willful tax evader you have your sights locked on. You won’t let me in, you won’t let me out…..Dear Lord what am I suppose to do? You are throwing granny under the bus. That once coveted US citizenship is now a noose around my neck. Notice to all those seeking the American dream…be careful of what you wish for, you may carry that dream to the poor house. Seems the choice is bankruptcy or never being able to visit your grandchildren, care for your aging parents, never being able to come home……..Thanks.
    Americans somehow consider themselves exceptional….yes, they are exceptionally cruel. Once again the 1% will still have the means to avoid taxes and the deficit will be balanced on the backs of the poor. This has become a human rights violation. We are not physically bruised or tortured, it is even worse, you’ve taken our souls.
    I would like to remain anonymous as I fear the IRS will come knocking at my door any minute. (Yes, they are making me paranoid. The Canadian government has caved thus far, what’s to stop them from caving a wee bit more.)

    Like

  35. Sasha Avatar
    Sasha

    I am wondering if “Fifth Estate” might be interested in doing a story on this? Such a program might boost the knowledge base – & result in incredulous / outrage – of average Canadians re. the impact of FATCA, FBAR to Canadians / US persons. I’ve seen many Fifth Estate programs result in changes – and backpedaling – from Canadian government.

    Like

  36. Blaze Avatar
    Blaze

    @Dual Senior: Thanks so much for having the courage to come forward yourself.
    Welcome to Sandbox. You are among friends here.
    A few points:
    The IGA only says banks will not be required to report TFSAs. It does not say that the US will not tax them or will not levy FBAR penalties for failure to report them. I don’t know if the IRS will or won’t, but I do know some people have cancelled their TFSAs because of that, but others have kept their TFSAs.
    In terms of renouncing, I don’t think this is conditional upon you filing with IRS, although you will be expected to file with IRS before or after you renounce. Maybe Pacifica or someone else could give you more information about that.
    Third, don’t even think about going into OVDI. That is a program intended for people who are true criminals–not for people like you. However, if you do enter OVDI, you will be treated as a criminal and would be more likely to incur penalties.
    @Sasha: Someone contacted a reporter for CBC Fifth Estate. There were a couple of reasons why they said they would not be able to do a story on FATCA. However, it was that contact that led to the earlier stories on CBC Radio and Television. Unfortunately, they have been quite silent on the impact of the IGA on honest Canadians.

    Like

  37. KalC Avatar
    KalC

    Dual Senior. As you know by now, your best option is to do nothing. Why do so many people think they have to play by their rules when the game is rigged?

    Like

  38. Dual Senior Avatar
    Dual Senior

    My son wants me to come live with him in the US when I am not longer able to care for myself on my own….which is looming unfortunately. That is now an option not available to me. What do you do when the game is rigged but you still have to play? (I’m whining and cant’ stand myself but I’m terribly frightened).

    Like

  39. KalC Avatar
    KalC

    Dual Senior. That adds a whole new layer of complexity. I apologize for being so blunt

    Like

  40. Blaze Avatar
    Blaze

    @Dual Citizen: Certainly the possibility of moving to United States to live with or near your son complicates things for you.
    If you renounce, I don’t know if you would be permitted to move to the US to live there. I think you would then have to apply as a non-resident alien. Does anyone else know the answer to that?
    In addition, I don’t know what health care coverage you might be entitled in the US if you were to move there in your senior years either as a citizen or as a renounced citizen.
    This certainly has complicated the lives of many of us!

    Like

  41. Dual Senior Avatar
    Dual Senior

    No apology necessary, I would agree with you totally if I didn’t happen to be me!

    Like

  42. Pacifica777 Avatar
    Pacifica777

    @ Dual Senior and Blaze,
    Yes, Blaze correct when she writes, “In terms of renouncing, I don’t think this is conditional upon filing with IRS, although you will be expected to file with IRS before or after you renounce.”
    Dept of State deals only with the citizenship itself; and citizenship, or loss of it, is not dependent on one’s tax status.  
    DoS doesn’t concern itself with IRS matters, basically don’t care, not their department.  Dept of State’s only involvement/connection with tax is the following:
    (1) At the consulate the person signs DS-4081, the Statement of Understanding of Consequences.  One of the 12 items in this Statement is Item 10, which refers to tax consequences. 

    Click to access 81607.pdf

    (2) Dept of State is to provide IRS with a copy of each CLN they issue, as per DoS Interagency Coordination and Reporting Requirements.

    Click to access 113465.pdf

    You can renounce prior to filing back tax forms.
    You have until June 15th of the year following your renunciation to certify that you have been tax compliant for the five years prior to your renunciation. 
    This certification is a yes/no question on the exit tax form (8854), which reads: “ Do you certify under penalties of perjury that you have complied with all of your tax obligations for the 5 preceding tax years?”
    So, to wrap things up with IRS, if you renounced on, say, 23 January 2014, you’d have to have filed the following with IRS by June 15th, 2015 (when I write 1040s, I mean any other forms required with it as well):
    (1) 1040s for 2009-2013,
    (2) a partial year 1040 for all income to 1 Jan – 22 Jan 2014;
    (3) for your US source income, a partial year 1040-NR for 23 Jan – 31 Dec 2014, declaring only your US source income. 
    (4) 8854.
    If a person doesn’t file, it causes “covered expatriate” status with IRS http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i8854.pdf.  However, the citizenship itself remains terminated as of renunciation day and the CLN remains valid.

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  43. Sasha Avatar
    Sasha

    Brothers . . . just got the “Tax Alert” email below from our accountant who looks after our business, informing us about the tax implications of U.S. citizens. Didn’t take them long to jump on this band wagon! Of course, there’s lots of $$ to be made by accountants, so they are probably gleeful about FATCA, IGA etc. As they have no idea I am a U.S. person, I assume they sent the same email to all their clients.
    TAX ALERT
    Are you a citizen of the United States?
    Citizens of the United States living in Canada have tax compliance and financial reporting requirements that, if not met, could result in significant taxes, interest and /or penalties. Are you a citizen of the United States who could be subject to these charges?
    Generally, you are a US citizen if:
    · You were born in the US,
    · You underwent the legal process of naturalization to become a US citizen, or
    · Both of your parents were born in the US even if you were born in Canada
    You could be a US citizen if:
    · You were born after December 23, 1952 and before November 14, 1986 and
    Ø One of your parents is a US citizen, and
    Ø That parent was physically present in the US for at least 10 years prior to your birth (at least 5 of which were after age 14)
    You could be a US citizen if:
    · You were born on or after November 14, 1986 and
    Ø One of your parents is a US citizen, and
    Ø That parent was physically present in the US for at least 5 years prior to your birth (at least 2 of which were after age 14)
    You could also be a US citizen under other criteria.
    The determination of US citizenship is complicated. If you require assistance to determine whether or not you are a US citizen, please contact us and we can refer you to an immigration lawyer.

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  44. Sasha Avatar
    Sasha

    Has anyone else received this type of “alert” from their accountant?

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  45. Blaze Avatar
    Blaze

    I haven’t.

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  46. Victoria Avatar

    Someone pointed out to me the other day that it might be a good idea for Americans abroad who are having children abroad to NOT file a U.S.consular report of birth abroad. It’s not required by any law and not filing doesn’t mean that the child can’t claim citizenship later (just means a little less paperwork).
    I like it because it gives the child a choice. When he or she is old enough he can march down to the embassy himself if he wants to – hopefully with full knowledge of what the responsibilities of US citizenship are. If not then there will be no record on the US side that he is one. (Though I imagine that if someone looks hard enough they will figure it out).

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  47. Blaze Avatar
    Blaze

    Victoria: That’s a good point. I was speaking recently with a couple who dragged their teenage daughter to the US Consulate many years ago to register her as a U.S. citizen when she was about 16.  She insisted she did not want to be an American.
    Now a mother herself, she still does not want to be a US citizen–for even bigger reasons than before.
    Relinquishment or renunciation of US citizenship must be voluntary. Shouldn’t acquisition of US citizenship be the same, especially for children born outside United States or “accidental” Americans born in US to non-US parents?
     
     
     

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  48. ArcticGrayling Avatar
    ArcticGrayling

    @ Blaze…..
    Americans don’t look at it that way. If you were born on the plantation, or were born off the plantation to somebody from the plantation, the master in the big house wants to know about it.

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  49. Blaze Avatar
    Blaze

    @ArcticGreyling:  I know how the Americans consider it. I was just suggesting what a reasonable approach should be. Of course, there is nothing reasonable about the Americans on this topic.

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  50. calgary411 Avatar
    calgary411

    Gotta mostly agree with Arctic Grayling: doesn’t matter if registered as a birth abroad or not if the facts are there (one parent with enough “time served” in the US or a child born to two US parents living abroad). Here is what I put together for issues for the potential Charter Challenge, which will touch on that, http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2014/03/08/you-can-send-in-your-comments-on-the-legal-opinion-and-we-will-forward-these-to-the-constitutional-lawyer/comment-page-1/#comment-1200073.
    i.e., A CLAIM to US citizenship, I can understand — not an automatic “another slave born” and, in some cases, entrapped with no possible way out through renunciation (which theirs would have to be as they are born that awful word to me: DUAL).

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